Author Topic: Whither, Democracy?  (Read 3172 times)

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Offline Super Colin Blow

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Re: Whither, Democracy?
« Reply #75 on: February 14, 2022, 12:19:22 pm »
Notwithstanding the fact Democrats did cede power following these elections in the civilized legal manner expected of them the fact remains, underscored by the Jan 6th event, that bipartisan mistrust in their election system has long since passed a point of no return.  Will America have to resort to violence like other struggling democracies do before admitting they need help and invite in a team of unbiased international electioneers?

Does electioneers sound too much like engineers? Dun Dun Duuuun!       

Though I am a Democrat myself and have no great love for the GOP, they have ceded power on plenty of occasions. Trump tried not to, but he didn't succeed. His lawsuits were defeated in every state where he filed one after the election. Even the Secretary of State of Georgia told him to bugger off, one Republican to another. I'll grant you, a lot of Repubilcans listened to Trump and insist that the election was somehow stolen, without a shred of proof to back it up, but he left office anyway. 

You started to make a sound argument, but it's degenerated into another "the US is a third world country" BS. Your own country had a "reversed" election in 2019, not terribly dissimilar from the US election of 2016, and you use the same electoral system (First Past the Post) that the US uses. Trudeau canned the electoral reform once it became clear it would lose him the next election (which it would have).

Tell me, does the Canadian press portray the US as a third world tinpot dictatorship? You really need to read up on our constitution, then your views might be more supportable. You point out flaws in our government without having any real knowledge of the constitution. You flat out admitted that above. How can you tell me my country's constitution is inadequate when you don't understand it?
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Offline Super Colin Blow

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Re: Whither, Democracy?
« Reply #76 on: February 14, 2022, 12:23:31 pm »
It's not really but what difference there is may simply be in the levels of political hatred that exists in both countries. We're a lot farther away from the fevered pitch America is at but make no mistake Trudeau's machinations and reversals/lies/broken promises whatever do rankle and erode faith and trust in governance and like rust this never sleeps.

Like the Trucker protest?

Yes, the typical "we're terrible but at least we're not as bad as the United States" refrain of some Canadians and Western Europeans. It always gives me a good laugh.

Just out of curiosity, are we doing anything right?

Sorry for making two replies in a row....I was still typing one as you sent your own. I'll try to avoid that.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2022, 01:06:07 pm by SuperColinBlow »
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Offline segnosaur

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Re: Whither, Democracy?
« Reply #77 on: February 14, 2022, 02:53:46 pm »
Peaceful protests.....they weren't terribly peaceful in Baltimore after the death of Freddie Gray. Unless of course you call burning down homes and businesses and smashing property a peaceful protest and not a riot.
Yes there was violence after the death of Freddie Gray. (Also violence after the death of Floyd.)

But Gray was killed by police officers, in what was seen as a case of police brutality (and many subsequent charges against the officers were dropped or they were found not guilty). I pointed out that authoritarian actions by police might be part of the trigger that leads to a civil war... this was an example.

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The electoral college has elected presidents with less popular votes than the "loser" before. It's happened in 1888. But here we are 140 years later, and the country seems to have survived that election. Bit late to worry about it now.
Yes, one time, over a century ago. But its happened multiple times since the 2000 election, and given the current dynamics of the American political system, the problem is likely to get worse. People might be willing to ignore a problem if it happens once in their life. If it happens time and time again? That's when people might start to get a bit annoyed.

Oh, and as I pointed out... its not just the presidency that is the issue. The republicans regularly held power in congress despite the fact that they represented a smaller overall portion of voters than the democrats.
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BTW, your own election of 2019 produced a winner with more seats in the Commons, while getting less popular votes than the opposition, no? How is this any different?
A couple of differences here...

- The 3/4 way voter splitting means that governments regularly form with far less than 50% of the popular vote (a fact that has benefitted both Conservatives and Liberals). This makes it different than a case where you have a (largely) 2 party system, and only one side (the republicans) benefits from the way their votes are handled.

- Our politics is not (as yet) polarized as the U.S. system, and we don't have the same sort of influential social conservative faction. Despite the worries the political left, Harper didn't outlaw abortion, gay marriage was left in place, and universal health care was left intact. Compare that to the U.S., where the republicans have gone all-in on the religious right.
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You almost sound hopeful that a civil war would happen in the US.
Not necessarily hopeful (since a civil war would have negative effects on the world as a whole). But there is a difference between "There is a risk... the U.S. needs to address it" and "I hope they start killing each other".
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I certainly hope I am wrong about that. But I do not think you fully understand our constitution
Seems rather arrogant of you. I understand the American constitution. But I'm not sure why you think that's relevant.

The constitution is not some sort of fantasy document full of magical spells that will fix the U.S. Its a flawed document that is often misused or ignored at best, and/or counterproductive at worse.
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or have really given it much thought.
Actually I've give it quite a bit of thought.

And I'm not the only one. Michael Steele (the former chair of the republicans, so its not like he is some no-name left-winger) wrote the following article:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/news/why-america-may-not-see-its-300th-birthday/ar-AASAqE9
Why America may not see its 300th birthday
...
The attack on the U.S. Capitol was not a fluke act carried out by a small band of misfits. It was the violent manifestation of broader, seething discontent inside our political system... Studies show a spike in the number of voters who support political violence, including a recent poll that finds that roughly 23 million American adults believe force would be justified to restore Donald Trump to the White House. At the same time, millions express support for militias and domestic extremist groups that espouse similar views....U.S. leaders and ordinary Americans must consider serious state-by-state reforms to make our system more competitive...While these reforms will not happen overnight, such a generational undertaking is necessary if we want America to reach its 300th birthday.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2022, 03:03:34 pm by segnosaur »

Offline segnosaur

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Re: Whither, Democracy?
« Reply #78 on: February 14, 2022, 03:42:31 pm »
Though I am a Democrat myself and have no great love for the GOP, they have ceded power on plenty of occasions. Trump tried not to, but he didn't succeed.
True, Bush Sr. ceded power. So did Ford. (And plenty of non-incumbents conceded the election when it was obvious they lost.)

Trump may be an outlier in this, but he is an outlier that continues to enjoy a significant amount of support within the republican party, both from the ranks and file who continue to idolize him, and politicians who seek his endorsement.

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His lawsuits were defeated in every state where he filed one after the election. Even the Secretary of State of Georgia told him to bugger off, one Republican to another. I'll grant you, a lot of Repubilcans listened to Trump and insist that the election was somehow stolen, without a shred of proof to back it up, but he left office anyway.
Yet the vast majority of republicans in congress were against impeaching him, and many are still lining up to kiss his ring.

Makes me think that the republicans are thinking less of "Its wrong to have a dictator" and more along the lines of "We can't have a dictatorship YET, but in the ear future".

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You started to make a sound argument, but it's degenerated into another "the US is a third world country" BS.
The U.S. isn't YET a 3rd world, but it is certainly headed that way.

It is regularly dropping in the Democracy index (as calculated by a unit of the Economist), and is now listed as a 'flawed democracy'.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

I remember seeing an interview with a political professor who analyzes political systems on behalf of the CIA. She said that if it were any other country exhibiting the type of things happening in the U.S., they would red-flag it as a cause for concern.
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Your own country had a "reversed" election in 2019, not terribly dissimilar from the US election of 2016, and you use the same electoral system (First Past the Post) that the US uses.
Not quite the same.

First of all, our riding boundaries and elections are controlled by an independent organization (as opposed to state-level politicians in many areas). This means gerrymandering and voter suppression is not an issue. Secondly, our ridings are of roughly equal size (population-wise), unlike senators (who may represent populations of either 10s of millions or a few hundred thousand). That sort of imbalance leads to problems in both congress and the electoral college.

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Tell me, does the Canadian press portray the US as a third world tinpot dictatorship?
It should. Much of the stuff going on there certainly resembles it... the grift of the Trump administration, the granting of pardons to his Klan, the acceptance of foreign assistance in getting elected.

A few decades ago, Nixon got turfed over his possible association with Watergate (and republicans in congress turned against him). Now, fast forward to today, and Trump has broken far more laws than Nixon ever has. Yet the republicans remain faithful to him.
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You really need to read up on our constitution, then your views might be more supportable. You point out flaws in our government without having any real knowledge of the constitution. You flat out admitted that above. How can you tell me my country's constitution is inadequate when you don't understand it?
I think people are more than capable of seeing the flaws in the U.S. system.

The U.S. constitution was written centuries ago, when slavery was acceptable, when a horse and buggy represented the ultimate in transportation, and when the U.S. was largely an agricultural society.

Online wilber

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Re: Whither, Democracy?
« Reply #79 on: February 14, 2022, 07:33:46 pm »
Hmmm. Care to explain how and what would trigger a civil war in the United States?

393 million guns in civilian hands?
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Offline Super Colin Blow

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Re: Whither, Democracy?
« Reply #80 on: February 14, 2022, 08:05:18 pm »
Well, whatever...I've said all I can say to try to convince you that we're not "headed for civil war". A reverse result in our election hasn't happened "multiple times" since 2000. It's happened only once since 2000---in 2016. Historians usually cite five instances out 59 where such a reversal (winning the popular vote but losing the electoral college) occurred. However, 1824 and 1876 aren't really good examples (for reasons I won't get into) so it's been 1888, 2000 and 2016. Three times out of 59.

And gerrymandering notwithstanding, there are similarities between your 2019 federal election and ours in 2016. Such as the fact that you have a prime minister in office whose party won less popular votes but more seats, which is why I have heard some Canadians clamoring for proportional representation, so you don't end up with a winner with less popular support. As you did in 2019, and as the US did in 2016. I did not say the situations were exactly the same, just that there are similarities.

The electoral college: it's done state by state, and only 2 states (with 9 votes between them) elect one elector from each congressional district and a bonus of 2 for the state overall. Everyone else is winner-take-all, and congressional districts are not factored in, in the remaining 48 states and DC. So gerrymandering has little or nothing to do with presidential elections, only elections for the House of Representatives. As far as the Senate the boundaries of the states have been relatively fixed so you cannot "gerrymander" the Senate. (There are different reasons why senators stay in a long damn time, but I won't get into that unless you really want me to.)

I cannot stand the Republican Party and that's why I left it some years ago. It's not in my interests anymore. But I am not a patriot to my party. Nor do I see it as the great savior from the right-wing devils.

If America is really heading for civil war, it won't be as one-sided as you seem to think. And despite the fact that I despise the man, Trump won't be solely responsible. There was a crap-ton more unrest in the sixties and seventies (you mentioned the Nixon Presidency). And by the way, some of the more recent unrest was not under Trump but under Obama. Not blaming it on either of them, mind you.

I very much doubt the brutality of the police in those instances is going to turn into something that will create a civil war. The purpose of my OP was that many democracies are showing some anti-democratic tendencies. Surveillance cameras, dependence on the State for everything, are just a couple examples. And the Patriot Act is still on the books. Obama and Biden figured it was too useful to throw away however dictatorial it may be. Yet, Europeans have had anti-terrorist measures long before the passage of the Patriot Act in the US.

Yes, the constitution of 1787 was written...in 1787, when slavery was legal. But it's also been amended to prohibit slavery since then. And the voting rights of women, minorities, and young adults. That's what I meant about its adaptability and flexibility. If you were correct in your assumptions--assumptions, mind you--about our constitution, we would have replaced it several times over since the beginning. (Did you read the thing yet?)

The problem with calling any country a "flawed democracy" is that they are all flawed in some way. I'm sure you have heard the expression that democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried. Whoever said that wasn't kidding. The US is a flawed democracy. I'll be the first to admit that. But headed for civil war? Not anytime soon and not exactly as you think.

Also take into account the US president has nowhere near the internal power of your PM. Even Trump couldn't get away with everything he wanted to do. As hypothetical PM of the US, Trump would have gotten his way every time. A Trump or a Nixon would have salivated over such power.

I hope I hit all the points you made, if I missed anything, let me know.
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Online wilber

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Re: Whither, Democracy?
« Reply #81 on: February 14, 2022, 08:29:15 pm »
When it comes to being a flawed democracy the US is different in it's electoral process and a large proportion of the public's lack of confidence in its electoral system. That is different from most other "western" democracies where the people don't dispute the validity of the process regardless of how much they may dislike the result.
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Offline segnosaur

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Re: Whither, Democracy?
« Reply #82 on: February 14, 2022, 11:56:56 pm »
Well, whatever...I've said all I can say to try to convince you that we're not "headed for civil war". A reverse result in our election hasn't happened "multiple times" since 2000. It's happened only once since 2000---in 2016.
That's a bit nitpicky.... I am counting 2000 as one of the times it happened "since 2000", since there is no defined time of "when 2000 occured". (Jan1 2000? Dec 31?)

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Historians usually cite five instances out 59 where such a reversal (winning the popular vote but losing the electoral college) occurred. However, 1824 and 1876 aren't really good examples (for reasons I won't get into) so it's been 1888, 2000 and 2016. Three times out of 59.
Yes, and 2 of those times were within the last decade. That was my point. What was a rare event that might have occurred once in a person's life time has now happened twice in under 2 decades.

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And gerrymandering notwithstanding, there are similarities between your 2019 federal election and ours in 2016. Such as the fact that you have a prime minister in office whose party won less popular votes but more seats, which is why I have heard some Canadians clamoring for proportional representation, so you don't end up with a winner with less popular support. As you did in 2019, and as the US did in 2016. I did not say the situations were exactly the same, just that there are similarities.
The similarities are so minor (and dwarfed by the differences) that the comparisons don't really mean much.

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The electoral college: it's done state by state, and only 2 states (with 9 votes between them) elect one elector from each congressional district and a bonus of 2 for the state overall. Everyone else is winner-take-all, and congressional districts are not factored in, in the remaining 48 states and DC. So gerrymandering has little or nothing to do with presidential elections, only elections for the House of Representatives.
Never claimed it did affect presidential elections. But controlling the house is a pretty big thing. (Perhaps not as big as controlling the senate, but Biden is still not going to get any legislation passed if the republicans retake the house in 2022.)

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As far as the Senate the boundaries of the states have been relatively fixed so you cannot "gerrymander" the Senate.
Again, never said you could.

As I said before, the problem with the senate is that small/less populated states (like Wyoming) have just as much power in the senate than larger states like California. Given the fact that you're supposed to have "equality", the fact that your average Wyoming voter has more influence than a California voter seems a bit... questionable.

(Now, its common when this is brought up, for people to bring up this poetic "The U.S. is a union of states", or whatever, but from a pragmatic point of view, its problematic.
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I cannot stand the Republican Party and that's why I left it some years ago. It's not in my interests anymore. But I am not a patriot to my party. Nor do I see it as the great savior from the right-wing devils.
Moscow Mitch and the republicans, despite their senators representing fewer voters than Democratic voters, were able to block Obama's judicial nominees. Their advantage in the electoral college gave them the presidencies of both the Shrub and Stubby McBonespurs. They now have a 6-3 control of the supreme court (based on the above factors). Control of the courts means that voter suppression laws and gerrymandering in red states are allowed to stand, giving them further advantages in both congress and the white house.

If control were based more on popular vote none of that would have happened. Bush and Trump would never have got into power. (Not unless the republicans altered their policies to have widespread appeal.) They would never have been able to block the Garland nomination. You would be looking at a supreme court where the majority were nominated by Democrats.

So instead of having 1 presidental term since 2000 (including the 2000 election), they have had 3. Instead of a minority on the supreme court they have a solid majority, and probably will for a generation.

So yeah, those flaws in the system are saving the republicans.

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If America is really heading for civil war, it won't be as one-sided as you seem to think.
It may not be "1 sided", but I think 1 side will be largely responsible for instigating it.

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And despite the fact that I despise the man, Trump won't be solely responsible.
Actually, I agree... The decline of the republican party has been going on for decades. (It may have even begun with the republican adoption of the southern strategy and their embracing of the evangelicals.) Trump just seems to be accelerating the process. (And the current republicans in congress are culpable. They could have stopped him, but chose not to.)
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There was a crap-ton more unrest in the sixties and seventies (you mentioned the Nixon Presidency). And by the way, some of the more recent unrest was not under Trump but under Obama. Not blaming it on either of them, mind you.
The difference between the 60s and now is that back then you didn't have the same sort of right-wing echo chambers that you do now. (Things like facebook/twitter allow disinformation and radicalization to spread. Back in the 60s, when information sources were more limited (and they had more of an incentive to "get things right") people might have protested about government actions, but you didn't get that dangerous feedback.

ETA: Also, consider this: Yes, Nixon tried to engage in certain... questionable... tactics back in the 70s, but republicans stood up to him and the system 'worked'. Trump engages in activities that were far more problematic than Nixon (blackmailing a foreign government to interfere in an election, fomenting a violent uprising, not to mention working with Russia to get elected, violating the emoluments clause, multiple security breaches, etc.) Yet republicans said "That's fine".

The system worked in the 70s with Nixon. The system no longer works now. That's why the U.S. is at a greater risk of civil war.
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I very much doubt the brutality of the police in those instances is going to turn into something that will create a civil war.
It might not just be police brutality alone that triggers the civil war. Its police brutality (favoring the political far-right), combined with declines in democratic institutions, spurred on by misinformation.

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The purpose of my OP was that many democracies are showing some anti-democratic tendencies.
You are right.. many other countries ARE showing anti-democratic tendencies. (Even Canada has dropped a little in the democracy index.)

We are more concerned about the U.S. because
1) Their decline has been pretty steady (many other democracies might be declining, but their rankings on the democracy index fluctuate)
2) Its "gun culture" might accelerate violent conflicts

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Yes, the constitution of 1787 was written...in 1787, when slavery was legal. But it's also been amended to prohibit slavery since then. And the voting rights of women, minorities, and young adults. That's what I meant about its adaptability and flexibility.
Again, its not only the changes in who can vote that is the issue. Demographic shifts are a significant problem (and the constitution has not changed to reflect those).

Plus, as I pointed out before, the constitution is not like some book of magic spells that can cure all the problems of the country if you just recite the correct passage. People ignore the constitution. The supreme court interprets it to be favorable to certain segments of the population.
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The problem with calling any country a "flawed democracy" is that they are all flawed in some way. I'm sure you have heard the expression that democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried. Whoever said that wasn't kidding. The US is a flawed democracy. I'll be the first to admit that. But headed for civil war? Not anytime soon and not exactly as you think.
Please point out all the other countries where, as a result of a legitimate election, the loser of the election attempted to overthrow the results by fomenting a violent insurrection.
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Also take into account the US president has nowhere near the internal power of your PM.  Even Trump couldn't get away with everything he wanted to do.
You are right... in theory the Canadian PM has more power within the government than the U.S.

The fact that we haven't really had the same sort of populist uprising in Canada is likely due to the nature of our media.... without the equivalent of a "Fox News", far-right misinformation does not get spread easily.

ETA: Just to add, another reason why Canada hasn't gone the U.S. populist route is probably because the evangelical movement does not have the same influence here as it does in the U.S.

But that doesn't mean the U.S. isn't in trouble. It just means that an authoritarian leader has to make sure he has the proper lackeys in congress (which Trump is working to achieve.)

Plus, what exactly do you think Trump wanted to do but couldn't? He destroyed both financial and environmental regulations, turned the U.S. into an international laughing stock, gave tax cuts to millionaires. What else do you think he wanted to do? (About the only major thing he was defeated on was health care, but despite their inability to repeal obamacare, they still managed to attack significant portions of it... enrolments declined, the mandate was dropped, etc.)

By the way, here's an article that also describes some of the issues that takes a similar pessimistic view...

From: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/04/next-us-civil-war-already-here-we-refuse-to-see-it
The United States today is, once again, headed for civil war, and, once again, it cannot bear to face it.... The legal system grows less legitimate by the day. Trust in government at all levels is in freefall, or, like Congress, with approval ratings hovering around 20%, cannot fall any lower. Right now, elected sheriffs openly promote resistance to federal authority. Right now, militias train and arm themselves in preparation for the fall of the Republic. Right now, doctrines of a radical, unachievable, messianic freedom spread across the internet, on talk radio, on cable television, in the malls....The Capitol police have seen threats against members of Congress increase by 107%.
...
The Vietnam war, civil rights protests...all were national catastrophes...But the United States has never faced an institutional crisis quite like the one it is facing now. Trust in the institutions was much higher during the 1960s. The Civil Rights Act had the broad support of both parties. JFK’s murder was mourned collectively as a national tragedy. The Watergate scandal, in hindsight, was evidence of the system working. The press reported presidential crimes; Americans took the press seriously. The political parties felt they needed to respond to the reported corruption. You could not make one of those statements today with any confidence.
...
Two things are happening... Most of the American right have abandoned faith in government as such. Their politics is, increasingly, the politics of the gun. The American left is slower on the uptake, but they are starting to figure out that the system which they give the name of democracy is less deserving...
...
...by 2040, 30% of the population will control 68% of the Senate. Eight states will contain half the population. The Senate malapportionment gives advantages overwhelmingly to white, non– college educated voters. In the near future, a Democratic candidate could win the popular vote by many millions of votes and still lose. Do the math: the federal system no longer represents the will of the American people....Hard right organization have now infiltrated so many police forces – the connections number in the hundreds – that they have become unreliable allies... in 2019, 36% of active duty soldiers claimed to have witnessed “white supremacist and racist ideologies in the military”, according to the Military Times.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2022, 12:15:17 am by segnosaur »

Offline Super Colin Blow

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Re: Whither, Democracy?
« Reply #83 on: February 15, 2022, 06:52:36 am »
OK...neither of us seems to have convinced the other of our point, so let's just end it here. I think you're wrong you think I'm wrong and we've both laid our cards on the table. Let's leave it at that before this drags on any longer than it needs to.
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Whither, Democracy?
« Reply #84 on: February 15, 2022, 07:25:55 am »

'Democracy' as it is, came out of the dissemination of ideas that arose from the enlightenment, which itself came from new ideas such as pluralism, tolerance of religion and really the printing press. 

With so many perspectives and beliefs, the idea that there was one true God and king - opposable only by heretics and madmen - couldn't be supported.  So a new and stronger method to accommodate more views without violence was adopted.

But the other thing that came out of that period was more systematic organization of language and countries.  Countries as we think of them were looser before this period.

So the arrival of the new social media may mean that such ideas will change again.   Countries may become less relevant, democracy less important.


Offline Super Colin Blow

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Re: Whither, Democracy?
« Reply #85 on: February 15, 2022, 07:48:01 am »
But the other thing that came out of that period was more systematic organization of language and countries.  Countries as we think of them were looser before this period.

Do you mean like Europe, and the HRE in particular, before the Peace of Westphalia? I understand that that treaty defined the modern European "nation state". I also understand it was pretty darn "loose" before that point (if I remember my western civ II class correctly.) You can't even make a map of the Empire without a microscope before that time. And these were typically absolute monarchies, all speaking the same language for that matter.

Thankfully, we are living after the Enlightenment, rather than before it. We have a lot of French philosophers--and the printing press, yes--to thank for that. Without the printing press, the ideas of that period never would have disseminated. I just hope you're wrong about social media making democracy irrelevant.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2022, 07:59:28 am by SuperColinBlow »
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Whither, Democracy?
« Reply #86 on: February 15, 2022, 08:13:43 am »
Do you mean like Europe, and the HRE in particular, before the Peace of Westphalia? I understand that that treaty defined the modern European "nation state". I also understand it was pretty darn "loose" before that point (if I remember my western civ II class correctly.) You can't even make a map of the Empire without a microscope before that time. And these were typically absolute monarchies, all speaking the same language for that matter.

I think so.  My understanding is that consolidation of language helped to define what was 'France' and 'Germany' vs 'Alsace' or regions.

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Thankfully, we are living after the Enlightenment, rather than before it. We have a lot of French philosophers--and the printing press, yes--to thank for that. Without the printing press, the ideas of that period never would have disseminated. I just hope you're wrong about social media making democracy irrelevant.

We're living in terrible times compared to what is coming though... I am convinced.  Imagine a technology that alerts you when any single individual is hurting - and imagine it not being abused but used to ensure harmony.

Offline Super Colin Blow

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Re: Whither, Democracy?
« Reply #87 on: February 15, 2022, 08:19:42 am »
I think so.  My understanding is that consolidation of language helped to define what was 'France' and 'Germany' vs 'Alsace' or regions.

We're living in terrible times compared to what is coming though... I am convinced.  Imagine a technology that alerts you when any single individual is hurting - and imagine it not being abused but used to ensure harmony.

Perhaps, but human beings do tend to abuse things, most unfortunately. There's always someone who takes something intended to help people and turns it into something terrible.
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Whither, Democracy?
« Reply #88 on: February 15, 2022, 08:21:58 am »
Right but if the system works overall, then abusers can be tolerated...

Offline Super Colin Blow

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Re: Whither, Democracy?
« Reply #89 on: March 01, 2022, 01:43:09 am »
Alas, democracy seems to be in retreat worldwide. At the end of the cold war, it was remarked that there were half as many communist parties and twice as many stock exchanges as in the 80s. But now, it seems that we were looking at it too optimistically.

Out of the former SSR's, almost all (Baltic States and Ukraine excepted) are under dictatorial rule again. Hong Kong's autonomy has been squashed. Egypt had a revolution in which it could have gone democratic, but then we end up with the former chief of the Army as president since 2013. Need I go on?
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH