Author Topic: Whither, Democracy?  (Read 736 times)

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Offline Omni

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Re: Whither, Democracy?
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2019, 10:47:07 pm »
So do the heads of state/government of:

India
Pakistan
the UK
France
Russia
China
Israel
North Korea.

They've got their own footballs. How is the U.S. president so exceptional in that?

I don't see Canada on your list.

Offline SuperColinBlow

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Re: Whither, Democracy?
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2019, 10:51:59 pm »
What of it? Sorry I thought we were talking about Heinlein and democracy?

And thanks for dodging the question lol.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 10:53:37 pm by SuperColinBlow »
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Offline Omni

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Re: Whither, Democracy?
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2019, 10:58:39 pm »
What of it? Sorry I thought we were talking about Heinlein and democracy?

And thanks for dodging the question lol.

But I thought you said Canada had more power in it's little finger.

Offline wilber

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Re: Whither, Democracy?
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2019, 11:34:39 pm »
The POTUS has at his disposal the "football" which is carried around behind him by the secret service, and which contains the codes to launch wwIII which could destroy the planet. That's a lot of power. I suggest/hope that the current situation is the same as it was when Nixon was losing his marbles, the real "football" is nowheree near Donny boy.

Sounds like the Q Bomb from The Mouse that Roared.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Whither, Democracy?
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2019, 11:41:16 pm »
Sounds like the Q Bomb from The Mouse that Roared.

Or the "Wrath of Grapes."

Offline SuperColinBlow

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Re: Whither, Democracy?
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2019, 10:37:38 am »
Sounds like the Q Bomb from The Mouse that Roared.


LOVE that movie! Peter Sellers is awesome!

I said that the Canadian Prime Minister has a lot of power compared to the US president. I was speaking of our respective heads of government.
War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Whither, Democracy?
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2019, 12:29:18 pm »
This isn't "having it both ways" as you put it. It's how it actually happens. If you really think that in any democratic country the voters can make a difference alone, and that a "real democracy" has little or no "elite", then please pass whatever you're smoking to me. It looks terribly pleasant.

That is a rather pessimistic view of things. I agree that special interests [spelt money] hold a lot of influence, but there is still a wide discrepancy between how things are implemented in various jurisdictions. Instead of California, maybe you should look to Switzerland. They also have plebiscites, but are implemented in a significantly different manner. I also believe that a more representative government, instead of a two party system makes it much harder for special interests to become so entrenched. You are right that true democracy is very hard to achieve, but I think there is much would could do to get closer to that ideal.

Offline SuperColinBlow

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Re: Whither, Democracy?
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2019, 08:36:04 am »
California is, I admit, a more extreme case of direct democracy getting out of hand. Not all states are like that. Ours for example: there was a law passed by the General Assembly (state legislature) to legalize same-sex marriage. After the governor signed the law, there was a petition drive to repeal it, mostly by conservative republicans, who are vastly outnumbered and outvoted in this state (we've been "blue" since Andrew Jackson was president). Fortunately (in my view), the law was upheld by the voters. So I can see the benefits of referenda/plebiscites in a democratic society. But it can get out of hand. The legislature passed that law, and they're paid to do it for 90 days every year (pass laws, that is.)

Switzerland could be a special case. Quite often, leaders refer issues to the public via plebiscites like that. But only if they think it's going to pass in their favor. Very few leaders, however democratic, feel like "let's roll the dice and see which way the people want it." They want to know the outcome before it happens, otherwise they wouldn't bother to refer it to the people. Maybe in Switzerland there is more direct participation, and they're used to it. Switzerland is smaller, and perhaps its citizens feel closer and more involved? I'll have to look that up on Wikipedia, or some external source.

If that seems a little pessimistic, I accept that.

But Washington doesn't play the same part in our lives that national governments do in other countries. Despite any call for "states rights", and the growth of federal power over the last two centuries, there is still a certain "distance" between the people and the U.S. government in Washington. (Take into account that with the present national population, there are 750,000 residents to one congressman. That's pretty distant.) We feel "closer" to the state and local governments as how it affects our daily lives. perhaps that's why we have less direct "engagement" than Switzerland in the U.S.?

BTW, I apologize for the "what are you smoking" sentence. That was rude of me.
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Offline MH

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Re: Whither, Democracy?
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2021, 03:54:11 pm »
I was thinking about US election pending, after a video I saw on the weekend:

Democrats spent $6.9B to win in 2020

https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2020/10/cost-of-2020-election-14billion-update/

Liberals spent $26.1M to win in 2019

That is 265X by my math.

Now the UK:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-election-2019-spending-campaign-conservatives-b859020.html

That's about $28M CDN dollars to win 66 million people - cheaper than Canada.


Offline Nipples Von Graham

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Re: Whither, Democracy?
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2021, 05:07:17 pm »
It's a dirty game at the top.  People will do literally anything they can get away with to win.

There's a lot of wealthy corporations with vested interests in the US.  In Canada it's mostly banks, developers, and oil.
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Whither, Democracy?
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2021, 05:09:09 pm »
It's a dirty game at the top.  People will do literally anything they can get away with to win.

There's a lot of wealthy corporations with vested interests in the US.  In Canada it's mostly banks, developers, and oil.

How much can a wealthy corporation donate to a political campaign in Canada?

Offline Nipples Von Graham

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Re: Whither, Democracy?
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2021, 06:05:29 pm »
How much can a wealthy corporation donate to a political campaign in Canada?

This assumes laws stop these things, and official donations are the only means of corruption.   There's always things like the Trudeau Foundation, vacations with the Aga Khan, and i'm sure a great many things none of us have any awareness of.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline MH

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Re: Whither, Democracy?
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2021, 06:41:22 pm »
Explain?

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Whither, Democracy?
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2021, 08:27:33 pm »
This assumes laws stop these things, and official donations are the only means of corruption.   There's always things like the Trudeau Foundation, vacations with the Aga Khan, and i'm sure a great many things none of us have any awareness of.


So the Aga Khan is getting what out of the PM?  Please be precise.  Put away the tinfoil hat and the conspiracies.
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Offline Nipples Von Graham

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Re: Whither, Democracy?
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2021, 10:34:32 pm »

So the Aga Khan is getting what out of the PM?  Please be precise.  Put away the tinfoil hat and the conspiracies.

https://www.charityintelligence.ca/charity-details/1-aga-khan-foundation-canada

Quote
"Founded in 1980, Aga Khan Foundation Canada (AKFC) is part of the Aga Khan Development Network, a group of international development charities operating globally. Aga Khan Foundation Canada was founded by His Highness the Aga Khan...

Of Canada's largest charities, the Major 100, Aga Khan Foundation Canada is one of seven that are not financially transparent.  The charity received $50.7m in donations in F2020. Aga Khan Foundation Canada also received $22.7m in government funding and $9.1m in other revenue (donations from other agencies and AKF).
"

The Aga Khan Foundation Canada headquarters is located in Ottawa across the street from Global Affairs Canada and a 3-minute drive from 24 Sussex and Parliament Hill.  That's what lobbyists do.  Also, charities like the Trudeau Foundation, Trump Foundation, and Clinton Foundation (founded in 1997 while Billy Boy was still in office lol) can be used for all sorts of "donations" by anyone or any 3rd party.  I have no idea what agreements are made behind closed doors, that's the whole point.

Case in point...

Quote
"Money began to rain on Trudeau Foundation once Justin took over Liberals, analysis shows.  The National Post's analysis confirms one in six donors (if academic institutions are excluded) have affiliations with organizations currently lobbying the government"

That also includes a ton of foreign donations.

https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/money-began-to-rain-on-trudeau-foundation-once-justin-took-over-liberals-analysis-shows
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.