Author Topic: The Queen is dead  (Read 1203 times)

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Online wilber

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Re: The Queen is dead
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2022, 06:54:56 pm »
Hey, we could always wind up with a vindictive, gasbag, grifter like Trump as head of state.

Would you rather have Trudeau, Poilievre or Lewis as head of state?
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The Queen is dead
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2022, 06:56:06 pm »
Parasocial relationships are weird, but I understand why someone would be upset by the death of a beloved actor or athlete but I genuinely am mystified by anyone being at all bothered by one of the royal family dying.

She's the living embodiment of the country itself, through her position as the Queen of Canada.

I don't really care that much about the specific person herself, i don't even know much about her personally nor is it very relevant unless she brings disrespect to the position or something, but she personifies the Crown and thus the country (symbolically).  She was our head of state for many decades, the royal family are mostly a bunch of snots that get far too much money, but as long as the Crown remains in place I have to pay respect as a Canadian and so should all Canadians.
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Online Black Dog

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Re: The Queen is dead
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2022, 08:16:25 pm »
She's the living embodiment of the country itself, through her position as the Queen of Canada.

L'État n'est pas elle.

Quote
I don't really care that much about the specific person herself, i don't even know much about her personally nor is it very relevant unless she brings disrespect to the position or something, but she personifies the Crown and thus the country (symbolically).  She was our head of state for many decades, the royal family are mostly a bunch of snots that get far too much money, but as long as the Crown remains in place I have to pay respect as a Canadian and so should all Canadians.

Or how about we don't. The beauty of living in a democracy is we don't have to respect our leaders, especially the ones we didn't choose.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The Queen is dead
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2022, 09:08:42 pm »
L'État n'est pas elle.

She is the embodiment of the Crown and the head of state, she isn't the state, but she symbolically represents the state through the Crown.  Go look up what a head of state is and what the Crown is in this country:

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/crown

"In a monarchy, the Crown is an abstract concept or symbol that represents the state and its government. In a constitutional monarchy such as Canada, the Crown is the source of non-partisan sovereign authority. It is part of the legislative, executive and judicial powers that govern the country. Under Canada’s system of responsible government, the Crown performs each of these functions on the binding advice, or through the actions of, members of Parliament, ministers or judges. As the embodiment of the Crown, the monarch — currently Queen Elizabeth II — serves as head of state."

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Or how about we don't. The beauty of living in a democracy is we don't have to respect our leaders, especially the ones we didn't choose.

You don't have to respect the individual person, but as a Canadian you have to respect the institution and what she represents, which is The Crown, and her position as Queen embodying the Crown, which is the state and government itself.  For instance, in order to get their citizenship new Canadians don't swear an oath to Canada, they swear an oath to the Queen of Canada (and her successors) since they represent the Crown, which is the same as swearing allegiance to Canada (since the Crown = Canada).  All of our laws are the Queen's laws because the GG, who represents the Queen (who represents the Crown, which represents Canada) signs our bills into law on the advice of Parliament.

So if you want to sh!t on the Queen you're literally sh!tting on the country itself, and are basically in outright rebellion of the country.  Any immigrant who becomes a citizen who swears their allegiance to the Queen (Crown) and then turns around and tells the Queen to shove it has legally broken their oath and their citizenship should be null and void.

But luckily we don't take orders from Elizabeth the human being, because the Queen's laws are signed on the advice of Parliament, which is elected by and represent the people of Canada.  So the Queen's laws are our laws in the end, so there's nothing to worry about.
I queef, therefore I am.

Online Black Dog

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Re: The Queen is dead
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2022, 09:30:36 pm »
She is the embodiment of the Crown and the head of state, she isn't the state, but she symbolically represents the state through the Crown.  Go look up what a head of state is and what the Crown is in this country:

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/crown

"In a monarchy, the Crown is an abstract concept or symbol that represents the state and its government. In a constitutional monarchy such as Canada, the Crown is the source of non-partisan sovereign authority. It is part of the legislative, executive and judicial powers that govern the country. Under Canada’s system of responsible government, the Crown performs each of these functions on the binding advice, or through the actions of, members of Parliament, ministers or judges. As the embodiment of the Crown, the monarch — currently Queen Elizabeth II — serves as head of state."

You don't have to respect the individual person, but as a Canadian you have to respect the institution and what she represents, which is The Crown, and her position as Queen embodying the Crown, which is the state and government itself.  For instance, in order to get their citizenship new Canadians don't swear an oath to Canada, they swear[/b] an oath to the Queen of Canada (and her successors) since they represent the Crown, which is the same as swearing allegiance to Canada (since the Crown = Canada).  All of our laws are the Queen's laws because the GG, who represents the Queen (who represents the Crown, which represents Canada) signs our bills into law on the advice of Parliament.

So if you want to sh!t on the Queen you're literally sh!tting on the country itself, and are basically in outright rebellion of the country.  Any immigrant who becomes a citizen who swears their allegiance to the Queen (Crown) and then turns around and tells the Queen to shove it has legally broken their oath and their citizenship should be null and void.

But luckily we don't take orders from Elizabeth the human being, because the Queen's laws are signed on the advice of Parliament, which is elected by and represent the people of Canada.  So the Queen's laws are our laws in the end, so there's nothing to worry about.

This is as relevant as Dune saga genealogy or the deep Tolkien cuts.


Offline segnosaur

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Re: The Queen is dead
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2022, 10:03:08 pm »
She was our head of state for many decades, the royal family are mostly a bunch of snots that get far too much money...
Minor point...

The Royal Family doesn't necessarily "get" money from the UK Government. (Well, they sort of do but don't)

What happened is that back in the late 1700s/early 1800s, King George III made a deal with parliament... he would turn over the revenue from land owned by the royals, and in exchange they would receive an allowance from the government (and have their debts at the time removed).

Currently, it costs the UK government roughly 40 million pounds to maintain the royal family. But the British government receives 200 million pounds per year in revenue from the use of crown lands. If the UK got rid of the monarchy, they wouldn't have to pay the 40 million to maintain the Royal family, but they also wouldn't get the revenue from crown lands, because they are actually considered the personal property of the queen.

Now you could complain "why is one person allowed to have/inherit that much land!", but that's just the way western countries work... people   usually have property rights (implicit or explicitly listed in their constitution) and the government can only take it if there is an important reason. (e.g. "We need to build a road and your house is in the way".) A reason of "We  think you have too much stuff" is usually not considered a valid reason.

Now obviously things are different in Canada.... we don't pay as much to maintain the gov. general as the UK does to maintain the monarchs. But then, we don't have the revenue sharing deal either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhyYgnhhKFw

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The Queen is dead
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2022, 10:06:12 pm »
This is as relevant as Dune saga genealogy or the deep Tolkien cuts.

No, it's literally the basis that our country's institutions are build on.  If you want to remove the monarchy you'd might as well create a brand new constitution from scratch because pretty much everything in our government flows through the Crown.  We can't even amend our constitution without fights breaking out to the point of our country almost breaking up so good luck with that, it's never going to happen.

The Crown is a weird and antiquated institution, but over the centuries it's also been stripped of virtually all of its real power to the point that it's basically just a symbol at this point.  I get the complaints, but other than reducing the funding to the monarchy I don't really see the point in the opposition to it or removing it and most people who want to remove the monarchy don't even understand our political system anyways....or they're from Quebec haha.  And I say reduce the funding because like you I think the people in the monarchy are kind of useless and spoiled ****, but I do respect the institution because its a fundamental part of our government and history.
I queef, therefore I am.

Online Black Dog

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Re: The Queen is dead
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2022, 10:02:02 am »
No, it's literally the basis that our country's institutions are build on.  If you want to remove the monarchy you'd might as well create a brand new constitution from scratch because pretty much everything in our government flows through the Crown.  We can't even amend our constitution without fights breaking out to the point of our country almost breaking up so good luck with that, it's never going to happen.

The Crown is a weird and antiquated institution, but over the centuries it's also been stripped of virtually all of its real power to the point that it's basically just a symbol at this point.  I get the complaints, but other than reducing the funding to the monarchy I don't really see the point in the opposition to it or removing it and most people who want to remove the monarchy don't even understand our political system anyways....or they're from Quebec haha.  And I say reduce the funding because like you I think the people in the monarchy are kind of useless and spoiled ****, but I do respect the institution because its a fundamental part of our government and history.

I didn't say anything about getting rid of the monarchy, I don't like it but ditching it is more trouble than its worth. I'm fine with it existing as a vestigial organ in our body politic. I do find it strange that you think it is simultaneously foundational to our institutions and purely symbolic. And I don't think there's anything intrinsic about the monarchy that removing it would cause the system to collapse and so, given that, I find the idea that one must respect it to be a bit silly.
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Online Black Dog

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Re: The Queen is dead
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2022, 10:10:19 am »
Anyway, I don't think any description of the monarch can possibly top this:


Online wilber

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Re: The Queen is dead
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2022, 11:24:38 am »
Crown Estate belongs to the state, not the Monarch. The Sovereign Grant is pegged at 15% of the Estate's income but can be increased if needed for improvements or restoration such as after the Windsor Castle fire. In 2016 the Grant was £43 million. Revenues to the state treasury from the Estate were £304.1 million.

The Scottish government has control of and receives the income from Scottish Crown Estate properties.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2022, 11:47:37 am by wilber »
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The Queen is dead
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2022, 02:15:11 pm »
I didn't say anything about getting rid of the monarchy, I don't like it but ditching it is more trouble than its worth. I'm fine with it existing as a vestigial organ in our body politic. I do find it strange that you think it is simultaneously foundational to our institutions and purely symbolic. And I don't think there's anything intrinsic about the monarchy that removing it would cause the system to collapse and so, given that, I find the idea that one must respect it to be a bit silly.

I didn't say the monarchy is purely symbolic.  It's functions are largely symbolic and ceremonial at this point, but there's also some useful functions it serves.

But the Crown itself is deeply imbedded in the institutions of our government and therefore, institutionally, it forms a key foundation of the state.  I don't know how to better explain it, it's fingers touch almost everything.  To remove it yes would be extremely difficult if not impossible and be quite expensive.  I can't imagine how many things would need to be renamed and rewritten, which also costs money and time and resources.

I queef, therefore I am.

Online Black Dog

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Re: The Queen is dead
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2022, 02:27:51 pm »
I didn't say the monarchy is purely symbolic.  It's functions are largely symbolic and ceremonial at this point, but there's also some useful functions it serves.

But the Crown itself is deeply imbedded in the institutions of our government and therefore, institutionally, it forms a key foundation of the state.  I don't know how to better explain it, it's fingers touch almost everything.  To remove it yes would be extremely difficult if not impossible and be quite expensive.  I can't imagine how many things would need to be renamed and rewritten, which also costs money and time and resources.

I agree with all this. I think of the Crown like a sh*tty tattoo we got when were 17 and can't afford to have removed or covered up and kind a just have to live with, so I don't really see why we need to respect it.
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Online Slim Shady

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Re: The Queen is dead
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2022, 05:13:33 pm »
I agree with all this. I think of the Crown like a sh*tty tattoo we got when were 17 and can't afford to have removed or covered up and kind a just have to live with, so I don't really see why we need to respect it.
I personally have never suggested people need to respect the monarchy.  To me, it’s a tie to our past, our history and what western civilization was birthed from.  I don’t care all that much for them, I just thought that the former Queen was a cut above what we normally see from British royalty.

Anyways, some of you always take issue with my memes, so here’s one for the naysayers.

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Offline kimmy

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Re: The Queen is dead
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2022, 11:36:41 pm »
I didn't say the monarchy is purely symbolic.  It's functions are largely symbolic and ceremonial at this point, but there's also some useful functions it serves.

But the Crown itself is deeply imbedded in the institutions of our government and therefore, institutionally, it forms a key foundation of the state.  I don't know how to better explain it, it's fingers touch almost everything.  To remove it yes would be extremely difficult if not impossible and be quite expensive.  I can't imagine how many things would need to be renamed and rewritten, which also costs money and time and resources.

In our government, the crown's function is as a custodian or caretaker that oversees the peaceful transfer of power and is occasionally called upon to act as a referee. We had that a few years ago here in BC when the Christy Clark Liberals attempted to form a minority government despite having fewer seats than the NDP/Green Party coalition. BC's Lieutenant Governor at the time played a key role in sorting out that mess, declining Clark's request for a new election after the non-confidence motion defeated the Clark government, and allowing Horgan's coalition government to proceed.

And you might say "well, big deal. This was just a ceremonial figurehead acting on the advice given by some constitutional scholars."  And that's true. And you might say "so we could have just got the same result by just appointing an expert to make the decision."  And that's the part where I say "not so fast." Because that necessitates the question, who appoints the expert?

We've had plenty of opportunity to watch the kind of shenanigans that our friends to the south have gotten up to over the years, and especially in recent years.  Does that really give you much faith in the independence and objectivity of appointed experts?

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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: The Queen is dead
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2022, 11:58:43 pm »
In our government, the crown's function is as a custodian or caretaker that oversees the peaceful transfer of power and is occasionally called upon to act as a referee. We had that a few years ago here in BC when the Christy Clark Liberals attempted to form a minority government despite having fewer seats than the NDP/Green Party coalition. BC's Lieutenant Governor at the time played a key role in sorting out that mess, declining Clark's request for a new election after the non-confidence motion defeated the Clark government, and allowing Horgan's coalition government to proceed.

And you might say "well, big deal. This was just a ceremonial figurehead acting on the advice given by some constitutional scholars."  And that's true. And you might say "so we could have just got the same result by just appointing an expert to make the decision."  And that's the part where I say "not so fast." Because that necessitates the question, who appoints the expert?

We've had plenty of opportunity to watch the kind of shenanigans that our friends to the south have gotten up to over the years, and especially in recent years.  Does that really give you much faith in the independence and objectivity of appointed experts?

 -k

It could easily be referred to the BC Supreme Court by Elections BC.  Problem solved.