Author Topic: The Islamic World  (Read 2284 times)

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Offline SirJohn

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #60 on: March 10, 2017, 02:53:32 pm »
Because your premise is faulty. You're saying "the greater Muslim community embraces a lot of hateful tenets." You want every Muslim to be responsible for the acts of radical extremists, when the vast majority of them in the West don't support that and are in fact escaping that. Refugees and immigrants are fleeing the radicals and terrorists. You're entire premise is like this. You're a conservative: why don't you take responsibility for the radical rightwing extremists who shoot up Mosques or torture and murder transgender people? It's like asking when you stopped beating your wife. It's a loaded question, kind of like Kellie Leitch's ridiculous pop quiz for immigrants.

But you're narrowing the focus to just the West. When I refer to the greater Muslim community I'm talking about the billion and a half Muslims living out there in mostly Muslim countries. This is where the religious extremism is bred and grown, and feeds off the rigid interpretations of the Quran popular in much of the Muslim world. If you agree with those tenets, and nod your head sternly when the Imam tells you that blasphemers must die, how can you be blameless when someone kills someone they consider a blasphemer? If we see that in some countries over 90% agree that death is the appropriate punishment for people who draw cartoons of the prophet, and then people from those countries fly to Denmark to try to kill the cartoonist, do we just call those terrorists freaks who have nothing to do with Islam?

As for my taking responsibility for some clown who shoots up a mosque, I've never said or suggested a single thing which could be construed as supporting violence against anyone in Canada, nor is the society in which I am a member filled with such suggestions which are widely accepted.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #61 on: March 10, 2017, 03:12:37 pm »
But you're narrowing the focus to just the West. When I refer to the greater Muslim community I'm talking about the billion and a half Muslims living out there in mostly Muslim countries. This is where the religious extremism is bred and grown, and feeds off the rigid interpretations of the Quran popular in much of the Muslim world. If you agree with those tenets, and nod your head sternly when the Imam tells you that blasphemers must die, how can you be blameless when someone kills someone they consider a blasphemer? If we see that in some countries over 90% agree that death is the appropriate punishment for people who draw cartoons of the prophet, and then people from those countries fly to Denmark to try to kill the cartoonist, do we just call those terrorists freaks who have nothing to do with Islam?

As for my taking responsibility for some clown who shoots up a mosque, I've never said or suggested a single thing which could be construed as supporting violence against anyone in Canada, nor is the society in which I am a member filled with such suggestions which are widely accepted.
And how can you be blameless when you call the guy who murders 6 people in a mosque simply a "clown" when you yourself strive to stir up anti Muslim sentiment?

Offline SirJohn

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #62 on: March 10, 2017, 04:16:53 pm »
And how can you be blameless when you call the guy who murders 6 people in a mosque simply a "clown" when you yourself strive to stir up anti Muslim sentiment?

What would you like me to call him? Even the cops haven't broadcast a motive yet, and the idiot called cops and turned himself in right afterwards because he felt guilty.

And I don't strive to stir up anti Muslim hatred. I strive to inform people about the deficiencies of our immigration system and the problems of bringing in so many people who are unable to look after themselves and whose persistent clinging to their backward, religiously inspired social values I see as a threat to our otherwise tolerant society.

That is stirring up awareness of something I consider an important issue. And you can't do it without pointing out how backward those values are.

But that is a long way from saying things like "yes, you know, people who question Christian theology must be executed," or "Those who question that Jesus is the son of God  must be killed" which is the sorts of things we see from members of Muslim societies in much of the world.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline cybercoma

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #63 on: March 10, 2017, 04:44:43 pm »
And how can you be blameless when you call the guy who murders 6 people in a mosque simply a "clown" when you yourself strive to stir up anti Muslim sentiment?
It's not even about that. He is blameless for the deeds of radical rightwing extremists. That's my point. I've never blamed him here or at MLW of being responsible for radicals who are conservatives because it doesn't make any sense.

But you're narrowing the focus to just the West. When I refer to the greater Muslim community I'm talking about the billion and a half Muslims living out there in mostly Muslim countries.
The difference is that I recognize that Muslims are butchering each other. As just one example, Afghanistan and Iran were beautiful, even progressive places until extremists took over their institutions. They still have peaceful people living there who don't support the radicalism, despite the fact that dissent can get you killed.

The problem that I have with the policies that you advocate when it comes to immigration from "the Muslim World" is that you're slamming the doors on people who are trying to escape from a society and from politics that probably appall them more than it does you....since, you know, their lives are directly and dramatically affected by it.

Muslims fought on our side in the Middle East. Muslims were killed by radicals for fighting on our side. So this is not a Muslim problem and those Muslims sure as hell don't need to own the actions of radicals they oppose any more than you  need to own the actions of radical right wingers.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #64 on: March 11, 2017, 11:12:37 am »
It's not even about that. He is blameless for the deeds of radical rightwing extremists. That's my point. I've never blamed him here or at MLW of being responsible for radicals who are conservatives because it doesn't make any sense.

But they're not a part of the conservative body. They're so far out there no recognized conservative organization would want to have anything to do with them. The terrorists/guerrilas/islamists don't live in isolation. They got to mosques in the centre of town, and hear Imams telling them what reinforces their beliefs. Occasionally we hear about some of the more nasty sermons delivered here in Canada. How often do you think sermons like that get delivered in Egypt, Syria, Iraq and Iran?


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The difference is that I recognize that Muslims are butchering each other. As just one example, Afghanistan and Iran were beautiful, even progressive places until extremists took over their institutions.

So maybe people should have condemned those extremists and fought them back then. I wonder what would have happened if Jimmy Carter had not persuaded the Shah of Iran to give up. Could he have crushed the dissent and retained power? Not that he was any great prize, but he did advocate progressive policies, which was one of the main reasons the mullahs turned on him.

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The problem that I have with the policies that you advocate when it comes to immigration from "the Muslim World" is that you're slamming the doors on people who are trying to escape from a society and from politics that probably appall them more than it does you....since, you know, their lives are directly and dramatically affected by it.

I don't mind those people coming in, provided they can support themselves. What I don't want coming in are all those harsh religious doctrines which you suggest they are fleeing. Which is why I advocate screening. Yet everyone on the Left seems to hate that idea.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline kimmy

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #65 on: March 11, 2017, 01:23:26 pm »
Tarek Fatah of the Muslim Canadian Congress--  one of those progressive Muslims who is sometimes accused of being an "Uncle Tom" for daring to criticize regressive Muslims-- retweeted this video from an ex-Muslim talking about Canadian imams preaching death for apostates.

https://twitter.com/TarekFatah/status/837024177156722689

These aren't exclusive examples... many imams in western countries have been caught on video saying awful things... but my point is that these guys say this stuff, in Canadian mosques, and the congregation reacts ... with silence.   Either agreement, or I imagine in many cases just uncomfortable awkwardness... but either way, it goes unchallenged.

Every once in a while one of these stories hits the mainstream-- like the recent Toronto Masjid controversy, where somebody found sermons imploring Allah to slay the Jews on their website-- and we get an apology "gosh, that totally does not reflect our values!" and Aymen Elkasawry gets disinvited from speaking there again and the sermons get quietly removed from the Masjid website.  But... the sermons were on the website for months, and surely Elkasawry wasn't speaking to an empty room when he gave them.  And Elkasawry himself says he totally mis-spoke and that he totally loves all people of all faiths, even though the wording he used is pretty unambiguous.  For me I have a hard time believing that Elkasawry or the Masjid are actually sorry for the content of the sermons... I think they're just sorry that people found out about them.

And these sermons didn't get "outed" by concerned members of the congregation. They got "outed" because someone from a Jewish website did some looking at the Masjid website during the recent anti-Muslim protest outside the Toronto Masjid mosque.

It seems most Canadian Muslims are willing to turn a blind eye to problems within their own community, for whatever reason.

 -k
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Offline cybercoma

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #66 on: March 11, 2017, 06:12:31 pm »
I don't mind those people coming in, provided they can support themselves. What I don't want coming in are all those harsh religious doctrines which you suggest they are fleeing. Which is why I advocate screening. Yet everyone on the Left seems to hate that idea.
Maybe people are confused by your comments since there already is screening. So you're criticizing the government for not doing something that it already does.

Offline Omni

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #67 on: March 12, 2017, 01:34:35 am »
I suspect that most of this breathless form of paranoia emanates from those who have never been much more than a few blocks away from their white, pasty faced insulated communities. It's amazing what a little international travelling can do to enlighten you and relieve you of that fear. The financial effects of Trump's illegal travel ban, which he dangles in the hopes will capture the votes of the "uneducated" which he said he claims he loves, are already being felt as the tourism business drops significantly. Hotel rooms in New York have apparently suffered the most. Who the hell would want to fly all the way from Europe for instance only to be refused entry because they may have a skin tone that's a little swarthy, or a name a little beyond Smith or Jones? So guess where they are coming to? Canada's tourist industry is already saying "thanks Trump, (you idiot)"     

Offline SirJohn

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #68 on: March 12, 2017, 11:15:31 am »
Maybe people are confused by your comments since there already is screening. So you're criticizing the government for not doing something that it already does.

The only screening for immigrants is a harried clerk going over their paperwork and doing a quick computer check to see if they have a criminal record or are on a terrorist watch list. That's it.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #69 on: March 13, 2017, 12:11:32 am »
The only screening for immigrants is a harried clerk going over their paperwork and doing a quick computer check to see if they have a criminal record or are on a terrorist watch list. That's it.
Refugees hoping to come to Canada are screened by UNHCR in the interim country they have fled to. If successful they are referred to and interviewed by a Canadian immigration officer, and then reviewed by CSIS. Some immigrants do get fast tracked because they are highly qualified in some profession, usually with regard to the financial sector, but not only that, and where there is a need for such people. Sometimes xenophobia does get in the way of reality.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #70 on: March 13, 2017, 06:44:22 am »
Refugees hoping to come to Canada are screened by UNHCR in the interim country they have fled to. If successful they are referred to and interviewed by a Canadian immigration officer, and then reviewed by CSIS. Some immigrants do get fast tracked because they are highly qualified in some profession, usually with regard to the financial sector, but not only that, and where there is a need for such people. Sometimes xenophobia does get in the way of reality.
Not to mention there's certain criteria they need to meet at all before they're even eligible to apply to Canada. In most cases, Canada only takes skilled people with families. That's before they can even be put forward to come to Canada.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #71 on: March 13, 2017, 11:57:18 am »
Refugees hoping to come to Canada are screened by UNHCR in the interim country they have fled to.

We were talking about immigrants. But the UNHCR does not 'screen' anyone. How do you imagine they would do that? They interview them, but mostly asking for their names, where they came from, and other details. The UNHCR is not equipped or trained to find out what the general cultural values are of the people they feed. Why would they even care?

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If successful they are referred to and interviewed by a Canadian immigration officer, and then reviewed by CSIS.

And again, just how do you imagine anyone is 'screening' these people? I mean, seriously. They had to bring in tens of thousands in a couple of months. Most have no documents supporting who they say they are. You can't ask the Syrian goverment and you can't travel to places like Alepo, or any of the towns and villages in the contested region. Just what screening do you think there is anyway? Do they do the Vulcan Mind Meld on them?

And again, I am not talking about people who are terrorists but people with deeply misogynistic and hateful religious beliefs. Those are not screened in any way, shape or form, for either refugees or immigrants. You know this. You've argued against any value screening. Yet you continue to pretend we 'screen' people for some weird reason.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #72 on: March 13, 2017, 12:04:50 pm »
Not to mention there's certain criteria they need to meet at all before they're even eligible to apply to Canada. In most cases, Canada only takes skilled people with families. That's before they can even be put forward to come to Canada.

Skilled people? We take people who say they're skilled, but we don't check that out in any way. Hey, did you know I have seven PHDs? Yup. Bought them all on the internet. The papers look real good, too!

In most of our source countries corruption is endemic. Why go to a university in Pakistan and get a degree when you can bribe the clerk in the office to print you up a degree for $10? Or hey, just buy it from this guy! https://qz.com/406701/the-pakistani-man-accused-of-making-millions-from-fake-degrees-paid-26-cents-in-tax-last-year/  or these people!

A degree certificate also ensures better visa status and could be the difference between an expatriate getting a family visa or not.

Which is why, the UAE is a bustling market for these fake degrees.

What makes them so unique is that the certificates are actually issued by a real university. This is why attestation is also possible.

However, the buyer just pays up and has never attended the university or an exam.


http://www.emirates247.com/news/buy-an-mba-degree-for-dh20-000-2011-01-30-1.348764

It's not like anyone is going to check out their claims. All Canada does is hurriedly look through the paperwork, after all.
But let's say the degree is real. So? If you don't speak English very well you're probably not going to be hired anyway.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 12:06:24 pm by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline cybercoma

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #73 on: March 13, 2017, 01:50:14 pm »
Or if you have a foreign sounding name, you won't even get a call, regardless of your skills. That's a problem with systemic racism,  not the applicants themselves.

Also, most of our source countries are in Southeast Asia, yet you of course use UAE and Pakistan as examples. I wonder why.

Philippines is our largest source country, followed by China and India. Considering China and India have nearly half the world population, this shouldn't be surprising at all. They were the second and third largest source countries in 1981 as well. UAE doesn't even register in the top 10, meaning there were less than 4,900 immigrants from there out of the 250,000 or so we accept in a year (against a Canadian population of 35,000,000). Pakistan was the 6th highest ranked country of origin though. There was a "society crippling" 7000 of them admitted in 2011, half of them under family class, meaning they were being reunited with relatives who have to sponsor and fund them.

To say your fears are overblown is an understatement; your criticisms are greatly exaggerated.

Offline Omni

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #74 on: March 13, 2017, 02:16:31 pm »

. You've argued against any value screening. Yet you continue to pretend we 'screen' people for some weird reason.

I don't "pretend" I research before making assumptions. I am happy that there is screening in place, I just don't agree that the Kellie Leitch version of it will accomplish anything beyond wasting time.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 10:42:49 pm by jmt18325 »