Author Topic: The Islamic World  (Read 2284 times)

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Offline SirJohn

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #45 on: March 06, 2017, 02:52:37 pm »
Judging due to race, color,religion seems a lot worse than "priggish"

Then why do you do it?
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #46 on: March 06, 2017, 02:55:48 pm »
Then why do you do it?
Simply pointing the finger at those who do.

guest4

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #47 on: March 06, 2017, 03:12:56 pm »
And some see it as noble to not judge however obvious the judgement should be, and to make excuses for the poor behaviour of people and nations based strictly on them not being White. I personally don't understand that sort of sentiment. It seems patronizing and priggish.

Just because some people fail to write off an entire group of people because of poor behavior by some of them doesn't mean excusing them because they're white.

Blaming and punishing everyone in a group for the actions of some of them is illogical and unjust.   It is the result of lazy thinking, and reflects and inability or unwillingness to see people as individuals, and instead just dumping them all into a group judged as "bad".




Offline bcsapper

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #48 on: March 06, 2017, 09:22:30 pm »
Parallel arguments.   Obviously blaming an entire group of people for the actions of a few is wrong.  Refusing to acknowledge the actions of the few for fear of upsetting the entire group, (or more to the point, the hippies that claim to look after them) is just as wrong.

No offence intended to any potential hippies on here.
Time for bed said Zebedee...

guest4

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #49 on: March 06, 2017, 10:18:58 pm »
Parallel arguments.   Obviously blaming an entire group of people for the actions of a few is wrong.
And yet you only object when you also want to say ....

 
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Refusing to acknowledge the actions of the few for fear of upsetting the entire group, is just as wrong.
Who is doing that?  And if they are, what makes you think its due to fear?



Offline bcsapper

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #50 on: March 07, 2017, 12:04:24 am »
And yet you only object when you also want to say ....

 Who is doing that?  And if they are, what makes you think its due to fear?

I think you haven't been reading my posts if you think I don't object to tarring with same brushing.  Although it is true I like to argue, and I prefer to take a contradictory position to lefties.  That's difficult, given my views generally, but I tough it out.  I always assume that the people who would tar an entire group with the same brush actually know they are wrong.  The opposite is true with hippies. 

Fear is just a figure of speech when used in that way.  They don't want to upset certain people.  I don't think they are scared of it.  They actually really just don't want to.   

When they refuse to acknowledge something, it's usually due to bigotry and stubbornness.  The sort of people who actually want you to believe the burka is a choice.  That their feminism doesn't give them the right to criticise another culture.  Those who think letting an actual Muslim speak about Islam is a mistake, so ban her, if she isn't going to toe the line.  The people who think that giving offense is fine, so long as they agree with to whom you are giving it.  (that last isn't just Muslims, of course.  It includes a lot of groups. )  The people who think that terrorism is okay until it kills more people than lightning.
Time for bed said Zebedee...

guest4

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #51 on: March 07, 2017, 08:19:46 am »
I think you haven't been reading my posts if you think I don't object to tarring with same brushing.  Although it is true I like to argue, and I prefer to take a contradictory position to lefties.  That's difficult, given my views generally, but I tough it out.  I always assume that the people who would tar an entire group with the same brush actually know they are wrong. 
 
Do they?  I don't even think they're aware that that is what they are doing. 

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Fear is just a figure of speech when used in that way.  They don't want to upset certain people.  I don't think they are scared of it.  They actually really just don't want to. 
I'd say it's context.

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When they refuse to acknowledge something, it's usually due to bigotry and stubbornness.  The sort of people who actually want you to believe the burka is a choice.
C says "Ban the burka!" - and give no thought to the unintended consequences of such an action ... such as limiting women who wear it (by choice or not) from going to school, going to work, going to a store.
L says "It is a choice for some; removing choice is not the answer because it reduces the freedom of the people you say you are trying to save".   

I've yet to have a ban-the-burka-type person explain just how banning the burka actually *helps* a woman who isn't allowed to leave the house burka-less.  It seems the most important thing to some people is that they not be subjected to the sight of a woman in a burka!  Out of sight, out of mind.  Out of sight, the problem no longer exists.   

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  That their feminism doesn't give them the right to criticise another culture.  Those who think letting an actual Muslim speak about Islam is a mistake, so ban her, if she isn't going to toe the line. 
This I haven't seen, so cannot comment on it.  I see the opposite, actually:  unless one is willing to vilify Muslims and Islam, one is 'supporting fgm, supporting child-marriage and pedophilia, supporting gay-killing' etc. 

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The people who think that terrorism is okay until it kills more people than lightning.
You will need to check your comprehension skills.   Nobody thinks terrorism is "ok", but fear-of-other makes people do things like shoot someone because they look like they are Muslim.   Given that this fear is stoked by certain groups and certain politicians, despite the reality of actually being injured or killed by a Muslim terrorist, sometimes the more rational among us think pointing out that other things are much more likely to kill you - such as lightning - might help.   

Of course, we should know that an irrational fear doesn't respond to rationality; indeed, they conclude something stupid like "oh they think terrorism is ok because more people die from lightning strikes".


Offline bcsapper

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #52 on: March 07, 2017, 07:03:34 pm »
 
Do they?  I don't even think they're aware that that is what they are doing. 

I always assume so.  If they don't, there must be a reason.  Either a person knows right from wrong or they don't.

I'd say it's context.

I'd say it was a figure of speech.

C says "Ban the burka!" - and give no thought to the unintended consequences of such an action ... such as limiting women who wear it (by choice or not) from going to school, going to work, going to a store.
L says "It is a choice for some; removing choice is not the answer because it reduces the freedom of the people you say you are trying to save".   

I've yet to have a ban-the-burka-type person explain just how banning the burka actually *helps* a woman who isn't allowed to leave the house burka-less.  It seems the most important thing to some people is that they not be subjected to the sight of a woman in a burka!  Out of sight, out of mind.  Out of sight, the problem no longer exists.   

I would never advocate banning the Burka.  I'm pro choice.  As in many other instances where choices are made, I don't need to agree with the reasons behind an individual's choice.  If a woman says she wants to wear a burka, then she should be allowed to. (Within reason.  Driver's licence, passport, public service, no)  That won't change my mind about whether or not she really wants to.


This I haven't seen, so cannot comment on it.  I see the opposite, actually:  unless one is willing to vilify Muslims and Islam, one is 'supporting fgm, supporting child-marriage and pedophilia, supporting gay-killing' etc. 

Just villify those Muslims who support it.  And those who are ambivalent about it.  That's what I do.


You will need to check your comprehension skills.   Nobody thinks terrorism is "ok", but fear-of-other makes people do things like shoot someone because they look like they are Muslim.   Given that this fear is stoked by certain groups and certain politicians, despite the reality of actually being injured or killed by a Muslim terrorist, sometimes the more rational among us think pointing out that other things are much more likely to kill you - such as lightning - might help.   

Of course, we should know that an irrational fear doesn't respond to rationality; indeed, they conclude something stupid like "oh they think terrorism is ok because more people die from lightning strikes".

The problem with the lightning analogy is that there is no chance of being killed by lightning, unless you go where a thunderstorm is.  Then the chances increase dramatically. 
Time for bed said Zebedee...

Offline SirJohn

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #53 on: March 09, 2017, 07:55:44 pm »
So on another web site you all know, I posed what I regarded as a suggestion for discussion about whether the Muslim world as a whole can be divorced from the violence in the name of Islam we see almost daily there. It's even stated as a question. It was immediately deleted and I was suspended for suggesting that Muslims bear any guilt for the violence done in the name of Islam. Here it is.


"Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews."

Here's the problem with this sort of comparison. The above was clearly included so that people couldn't use their hatred of Israel as an excuse to accuse all Jews of the same sort of behaviour Israel engages in.

In the context of Islam it's clearly designed to prevent people from accusing Muslims as a group, of being responsible for acts of terror. But they are.

You see, most Jews outside Israel are fairly liberal in nature. I can see why it would be unfair to ascribe guilt for Israel's behaviour to them.

But the Muslim world as a collective embraces some viciously hateful religious ideologies towards non-Muslms as contained in their holy books. Among those is Jew hatred, and hatred of women, and in particular, women and any shred of expression of their sexuality. Someone wrote recently that half the Koran is about how to deal with and treat non-Muslms. I'm not sure if that's true or not but I've certainly seen enough passages about that subject. So if your community embraces these themes of extreme misogyny, of hatred towards Jews and non-Muslims, are you guiltless when some individuals from within your community takes this hatred as a guide and permission to commit acts of violence in the name of Allah?
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline ?Impact

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #54 on: March 09, 2017, 08:53:35 pm »
Someone wrote recently that half the Koran is about how to deal with and treat non-Muslms. I'm not sure if that's true or not but I've certainly seen enough passages about that subject.
I suggest reading the Quran, not selected passages you are quoted by a hate site. There is a lot in many ancient scripture that is pure garbage, nothing unique to Islam. There is also a lot of wisdom as well.

Offline JMT

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #55 on: March 09, 2017, 09:38:46 pm »
If it makes you feel better, I won't delete it.

I think you're wrong, but that's a separate issue.

guest4

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #56 on: March 09, 2017, 11:59:19 pm »
I wondered where that went - it was in response to the 'Ottawa Protocol', correct?   I couldn't respond when I initially saw it, cause I was at work ... hard to understand why it would be a banning offense, though. 

Offline ?Impact

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #57 on: March 10, 2017, 06:35:33 am »
hard to understand why it would be a banning offense, though.
The SS force are not to be trifled with.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #58 on: March 10, 2017, 09:41:20 am »
If it makes you feel better, I won't delete it.

I think you're wrong, but that's a separate issue.

I didn't think you would. I think it is something which should be discussed. Progressives are quick to lay the blame on the greater community often enough when there are social problems with individuals. I don't understand the logic in saying that the greater Muslim community bears no responsibility for embracing a lot of hateful tenets. It's not like they don't believe in them either (many/most). Polls have repeatedly shown that in many Muslim countries 80%-90% believe blasphemers, apostates and the like should be executed. If your society embraces that kind of hard core religious view then how can you entirely divorce it of any blame for other followers taking such beliefs to their most obvious conclusion?
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline cybercoma

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #59 on: March 10, 2017, 12:24:39 pm »
I don't understand the logic in saying that the greater Muslim community bears no responsibility for embracing a lot of hateful tenets.
Because your premise is faulty. You're saying "the greater Muslim community embraces a lot of hateful tenets." You want every Muslim to be responsible for the acts of radical extremists, when the vast majority of them in the West don't support that and are in fact escaping that. Refugees and immigrants are fleeing the radicals and terrorists. You're entire premise is like this. You're a conservative: why don't you take responsibility for the radical rightwing extremists who shoot up Mosques or torture and murder transgender people? It's like asking when you stopped beating your wife. It's a loaded question, kind of like Kellie Leitch's ridiculous pop quiz for immigrants.