Author Topic: Tesla New Vehicles  (Read 305 times)

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Offline MH

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Tesla New Vehicles
« on: November 17, 2017, 06:19:37 am »
 Tesla announced two vehicles yesterday ?

There must be people on here who follow this: explain it to me.

https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/17/16669024/tesla-roadster-2017-fastest-car-world
http://appleinsider.com/articles/17/11/17/tesla-unveils-new-semi-with-a-500-mile-range-roadster-that-can-hit-250-miles-per-hour

A Semi with a 500 mile range and a roadster that goes 1 to 60 in 1.9 seconds.  The techno nerd kids I work with LOVE this stuff, as it's both classically testosterone-supporting as well as touchy-feely-environmental. 

Please don't discuss climate change on this thread or I will vomit a moderator on you.




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Offline TimG

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Re: Tesla New Vehicles
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2017, 09:34:27 am »
A Semi with a 500 mile range and a roadster that goes 1 to 60 in 1.9 seconds.  The techno nerd kids I work with LOVE this stuff, as it's both classically testosterone-supporting as well as touchy-feely-environmental.
Telsa (the company) is a vehicle to consume investor cash. The truck is about creating the hype for "next big thing" to keep investor cash coming in now that it mid range sedan is built and underwhelming.

The trouble with EVs is they are awesome vehicles *in theory*. The trouble is always with the practical details like cost, range and re-fueling time under a wide variety of weather conditions.

Offline Omni

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Re: Tesla New Vehicles
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2017, 09:43:14 am »
And the beauty of EV's is they get you from A to B without leaving a trail of poisonous gases in it's wake, they're quiet, and they have so few moving parts to take care compared to their ICE counterparts. That investor cash will certainly keep on coming, from tomorrow's wealthiest.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Tesla New Vehicles
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2017, 09:54:10 am »
Telsa (the company) is a vehicle to consume investor cash. The truck is about creating the hype for "next big thing" to keep investor cash coming in now that it mid range sedan is built and underwhelming.

From all I have read they are damned good cars. The only problem is getting enough of them built. The move to electric vehicles is a good one for everyone concerned except the automakers. I remember seeing a documentary some time back on why they weren't building electric cars, and on it was a table showing the very limited number of moving parts in an electric vehicle which might have to be replaced/repaired. Sitting on the driveway next to it was the mass of parts one could expect to have to replace in an internal combustion engine. The automakers didn't want to bring in a car which would spend so little time in their service bays and require so few replacement parts.

As charging becomes easier and batteries last longer it will simply make no sense whatever to have an internal combustion engine. And that's quite aside from environmental considerations.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Tesla New Vehicles
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2017, 09:57:16 am »
Tesla announced two vehicles yesterday ?

There must be people on here who follow this: explain it to me.


The semi would be the big game changer if they can build it. It would be coming out as vehicles become more and more autonomous and would be the perfect truck to eventually become automated. I bet you could have it recharge itself by simply pulling into a handy charge bay, then continuing on its journey. That it won't veer across lanes or jackknife is clearly part and parcel of that consideration.

If I owned one of those big truck stops I would be selling about now.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline TimG

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Re: Tesla New Vehicles
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2017, 10:09:04 am »
From all I have read they are damned good cars. The only problem is getting enough of them built.
I am not certain the production problems are more than an excuse to cover up underwhelming demand or to limit losses (i.e. if Telsa is losing money on every vehicle shipping fewer vehicles saves money). It is impossible to know for sure without detailed inside knowledge. I have seen one analyst make a convincing case for the underwhelming demand by looking at other data that Tesla provides.

The move to electric vehicles is a good one for everyone concerned except the automakers.
The only way EVs will disrupt automakers is if it means that less complexity means more competition. If Telsa's production problems are real then the big automakers will have no problems building and selling quality EVs because the have decades of experience. i.e. the companies can still make money but will likely need a lot fewer workers.

As charging becomes easier and batteries last longer it will simply make no sense whatever to have an internal combustion engine.
There are some basic laws of physics that put practical limits on what can be done with charging times. Moving to EVs will require a change in driving culture.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 10:10:51 am by TimG »

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Tesla New Vehicles
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2017, 10:15:59 am »
I am not certain the production problems are more than an excuse to cover up underwhelming demand or to limit losses (i.e. if Telsa is losing money on every vehicle shipping fewer vehicles saves money). It is impossible to know for sure without detailed inside knowledge. I have seen one analyst make a convincing case for the underwhelming demand by looking at other data that Tesla provides.

Well, I was speaking purely of the reviews of these cars, which have all been pretty positive. Production problems are inevitable, especially given this is a new company with new people and a new product.

Quote
The only way EVs will disrupt automakers is if it means that less complexity means more competition.

It will disrupt their economic case. Right now dealers don't make an awful lot on new cars they sell. They make it up in the finance office through extended warranties, rust proofing, etc, and in the service shop, through maintenance, repairs and replacement of parts. If the they can't do this the dealers will want a much bigger piece of the original sales price of vehicles.

Quote
There are some basic laws of physics that put practical limits on what can be done with charging times. Moving to EVs will require a change in driving culture.

Battery power continues to creep up, and charging times down. I expect that to continue. Five hundred miles is plenty for a truck to make it from one charging station to another without a driver to pay. Hell, how often is an internal combustion vehicle going to drive 500 miles without stopping for the driver to rest and eat? The new sports car claims to be able to do 1000 miles on a charge. That's a gamebreaker if they can do it.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 10:21:22 am by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline TimG

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Re: Tesla New Vehicles
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2017, 10:28:59 am »
Production problems are inevitable, especially given this is a new company with new people and a new product.
They have been at this for years. They are either complete incompetents or it is a convenient excuse.

It will disrupt their economic case. Right now dealers don't make an awful lot on new cars they sell.
Dealers are not car makers. Jobs will be lost. The question is whether the EVs represent an existential threat to existing car makers. I don't think so.

Hell, how often is an internal combustion vehicle going to drive 500 miles without stopping for the driver to rest and eat?
Even if it is only 1 time in 10 that 1 time is enough for someone to not want to risk buying an EV. I know I wouldn't. Hybrids are better options from that perspective.

Offline wilber

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Re: Tesla New Vehicles
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2017, 12:05:53 pm »
Interesting vehicles. Like IC powered cars, range will go down the more their performance is used. Does the semi have a 500 mile range while pulling 80,000 lbs and what is the sports cars range after you make a few 1.9 second 0-60 runs? Still, the electric motor's ability to produce maximum torque from zero RPM makes it very attractive.


All the major vehicle manufacturers are going heavy into developing electric cars. They are putting more R&D into electrics than anything else these days, so they are definitely going to be a big part of the future. As the choices increase and prices decrease, I'm beginning to see one in my future as a daily driver, using my truck whenever I think range or being able to get a charge might be an issue.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Tesla New Vehicles
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2017, 01:02:21 pm »
With countries like China, the US, and Europe looking toward regulating ICE vehicles out of existence I would say investing in Tesla might not be a bad idea.

DETROIT — China has said it will eventually ban gasoline-powered cars. California may be moving in the same direction. That pressure has set off a scramble by the world’s car companies to embrace electric vehicles.

On Monday, General Motors, America’s largest automaker, staked its claim to leadership. Outlining a fundamental shift in its vision of the industry, it announced plans for 20 new all-electric models by 2023, including two within the next 18 months.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/02/business/general-motors-electric-cars.html?_r=0

Offline wilber

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Re: Tesla New Vehicles
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2017, 01:09:10 pm »
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 01:33:59 pm by wilber »
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Offline TimG

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Re: Tesla New Vehicles
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2017, 02:24:48 pm »
China is now the largest vehicle market and is calling the shots for the future.
China can force its population to drive whatever the government decides and throw anyone who complains into jail. It will be a little more difficult to convince citizens of democratic countries to give up the convenience of an ICE when it comes not having to worry about running out fuel and/or waiting hours for a fill up.

Offline Omni

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Re: Tesla New Vehicles
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2017, 02:37:27 pm »
China can force its population to drive whatever the government decides and throw anyone who complains into jail. It will be a little more difficult to convince citizens of democratic countries to give up the convenience of an ICE when it comes not having to worry about running out fuel and/or waiting hours for a fill up.

Why then do you think countries that don't have that power, such as most of Western Europe, all of India, and large parts of the US are heading the same direction within the next two decades or so if it were not where the world is heading?

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/09/electric-cars-replace-gasoline-engines-2040/
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 04:08:30 pm by Omni »

Offline wilber

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Re: Tesla New Vehicles
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2017, 05:14:55 pm »
China can force its population to drive whatever the government decides and throw anyone who complains into jail. It will be a little more difficult to convince citizens of democratic countries to give up the convenience of an ICE when it comes not having to worry about running out fuel and/or waiting hours for a fill up.

Already happening.  http://money.cnn.com/2017/07/26/autos/countries-that-are-banning-gas-cars-for-electric/index.html.

China is the world's largest and fasted growing car market. Together with the EU, sales are more than double the US. Where they go the world will go. US manufacturers know that if they don't respond to those markets, they will get left behind. Trump's reactionary policies regarding emissions and efficiency would end up costing US industry in the long run. US manufacturers know it and are responding accordingly.
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Offline TimG

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Re: Tesla New Vehicles
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2017, 05:46:45 pm »
US manufacturers know that if they don't respond to those markets, they will get left behind.
Of course makers are going to produce EVs. The question is whether people living in countries that let consumers choose will buy them. It won't be the first time that international companies provide different products to suit the requirements of different markets.

The EU bans will likely be watered down to allow hybrids as the deadline approaches and consumers realize that switching to EVs comes with a rather large convenience cost. 

It is worth noting that you could take all of the articles about biofuel/ethanol vehicles from 10-15 years ago, replace "biofuel" with "EV" and re-run the story. "Biofuels" went from being the savoir of the future to a footnote because the technology could not live up to the hype and people realized that the environment impact was, in some cases, worse than fossil fuels. Expect the same script to play out with EVs over the next 10-15 years.