Author Topic: Russia vs Ukraine war  (Read 19750 times)

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guest18

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Re: Russia vs Ukraine war
« Reply #495 on: January 29, 2023, 01:02:12 pm »
Are you clear in your mind what we're talking about? Your premise was that the Dems have a problem with anti-Semitism. Now that I've demonstrated that MTG's comments were way crazier and wrong and dangerous, you're trying to say you're just "using my standard"? Huh?
So the Dems aren't really anti-Semitic? They only are by "my standard"?

Online Black Dog

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Re: Russia vs Ukraine war
« Reply #496 on: January 29, 2023, 01:42:50 pm »
Are you clear in your mind what we're talking about?

You know the answer to this.

Offline Moonbox

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Re: Russia vs Ukraine war
« Reply #497 on: January 30, 2023, 12:58:11 pm »
It’s good to see that world war 3 is well on its way! 😂

Russia can't even beat Ukraine, so let's not make hilarious jokes about them being able to fight WW3. 

LET US HAVE OUR WAY OR WE NUKE EVERYONE isn't a compelling threat, or one any reasonable human being would entertain. 

Of course, if you're parroting Kremlin talking points that you've pulled off the garbage-net, we can safely assume you haven't considered the logic behind these claims in the first place. 

Offline Coolio

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Re: Russia vs Ukraine war
« Reply #498 on: January 30, 2023, 01:45:05 pm »
Russia can't even beat Ukraine, so let's not make hilarious jokes about them being able to fight WW3. 

LET US HAVE OUR WAY OR WE NUKE EVERYONE isn't a compelling threat, or one any reasonable human being would entertain. 

Of course, if you're parroting Kremlin talking points that you've pulled off the garbage-net, we can safely assume you haven't considered the logic behind these claims in the first place.

Has anyone seen the military capabilities of Poland?  It's rumoured they are arguably stronger than Germany, and would be in position to defeat Russia outright.  In the last few years, they ahve increased their military spending to 5% of GDP, which is even more than the US.  They also have gone on a huge military spending spree in the past 5 years acquiring modern weapons from the USA and South Korea. 

If Belarus attacks Ukraine, I think it should be grounds for Poland to enter the conflict, and destroy Belarus in 72 hours, then liberate the Ukraine.

Online Spike The Hike Shady

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Re: Russia vs Ukraine war
« Reply #499 on: January 30, 2023, 02:35:11 pm »
Just between you and me...

I am a recovering MAGA.

The first step is admitting you have a problem.

Break free of the MAGA cult.

I believe in you.
Psssst.  You’re still in a cult, you just don’t realize it.
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Offline Moonbox

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Re: Russia vs Ukraine war
« Reply #500 on: January 30, 2023, 06:26:31 pm »
Has anyone seen the military capabilities of Poland?  It's rumoured they are arguably stronger than Germany, and would be in position to defeat Russia outright.  In the last few years, they ahve increased their military spending to 5% of GDP, which is even more than the US.  They also have gone on a huge military spending spree in the past 5 years acquiring modern weapons from the USA and South Korea. 

I think if Poland wasn't part of NATO, they'd have already intervened in Ukraine. 

If Belarus attacks Ukraine, I think it should be grounds for Poland to enter the conflict, and destroy Belarus in 72 hours, then liberate the Ukraine.

Belarus is an even bigger shithole than Russia, and their army is a joke.  Them joining the war would be symbolic for Putin.  They'd not be able to accomplish much of anything and they'd probably revolt if Lukashenko tried.  He's only in power because Putin's army supports him.  If he asked them to fight a war for Putin on top of that, I doubt it ends well.   
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Online Spike The Hike Shady

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Re: Russia vs Ukraine war
« Reply #501 on: February 10, 2023, 01:08:35 pm »
Just in case anyone is still wondering why this war began in the first place.  Here is one of the reasons.  It doesn’t mean that Russia was right to invade.  But denying some of the reasons why it happened is denying truth. 

Russia’s got a point: The U.S. broke a NATO promise
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-shifrinson-russia-us-nato-deal--20160530-snap-story.html

Online Black Dog

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Re: Russia vs Ukraine war
« Reply #502 on: February 10, 2023, 01:37:40 pm »
Just in case anyone is still wondering why this war began in the first place.  Here is one of the reasons.  It doesn’t mean that Russia was right to invade.  But denying some of the reasons why it happened is denying truth. 

Russia’s got a point: The U.S. broke a NATO promise
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-shifrinson-russia-us-nato-deal--20160530-snap-story.html

Did NATO Promise Not to Enlarge? Gorbachev Says “No”


Western leaders never pledged not to enlarge NATO, a point that several analysts have demonstrated. Mark Kramer explored the question in detail in a 2009 article in The Washington Quarterly. He drew on declassified American, German and Soviet records to make his case and noted that, in discussions on German reunification in the two-plus-four format (the two Germanys plus the United States, Soviet Union, Britain and France), the Soviets never raised the question of NATO enlargement other than how it might apply in the former German Democratic Republic (GDR).
...
Russia behind the Headlines has published an interview with Gorbachev, who was Soviet president during the discussions and treaty negotiations concerning German reunification. The interviewer asked why Gorbachev did not “insist that the promises made to you [Gorbachev]—particularly U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s promise that NATO would not expand into the East—be legally encoded?” Gorbachev replied: “The topic of ‘NATO expansion’ was not discussed at all, and it wasn’t brought up in those years. … Another issue we brought up was discussed: making sure that NATO’s military structures would not advance and that additional armed forces would not be deployed on the territory of the then-GDR after German reunification. Baker’s statement was made in that context… Everything that could have been and needed to be done to solidify that political obligation was done. And fulfilled.”

Gorbachev continued that “The agreement on a final settlement with Germany said that no new military structures would be created in the eastern part of the country; no additional troops would be deployed; no weapons of mass destruction would be placed there. It has been obeyed all these years.” [/quote]

There was no promise not to enlarge NATO’


Quote
When President George H.W. Bush sat down with Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev to negotiate the peaceful end of the Cold War and the reunification of Germany, former Under Secretary of State Robert Zoellick ’81 was in the room where it happened.

During the 1990 summit, Zoellick says President Gorbachev accepted the idea of German unification within the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, based on the principle that every country should freely choose its own alliances.

“I was in those meetings, and Gorbachev has [also] said there was no promise not to enlarge NATO,” Zoellick recalls. Soviet Foreign Minister, Eduard Shevardnadze, later president of Georgia, concurred, he says. Nor does the treaty on Germany’s unification include a limit on NATO enlargement. Those facts have undermined one of Russian President Vladimir Putin’s justifications for invading Ukraine — that the United States had agreed that former Warsaw Pact nations would never become part of the North Atlantic security alliance.

Even if there was such a promise made (and there was not) why would NATO be obligated to honour a commitment it made to a state that no longer exists?

guest18

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Re: Russia vs Ukraine war
« Reply #503 on: February 10, 2023, 02:09:28 pm »
“We signed a treaty with a King whose head is now in a basket.
Would you like to take it out and ask it?
‘Should we honour our treaty, King Louis’ head?’
‘Uh…do whatever you want. I’m super dead!’”

 
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Russia vs Ukraine war
« Reply #504 on: February 10, 2023, 04:16:30 pm »
Any agreement should be in writing.  It doesn't matter what anyone says.  Robert Zoellick is a neocon piece of crap, he can't be believed.  I believe nothing any of these politicians say without evidence.

Russia/Putin is not a good faith actor so NATO can do whatever it wants anyways.  But did the Biden admin instigate the invasion?  Sure.  Would the US allow the Warsaw Pact on its doorstep, ie: Mexico?  No.  It tried a failed coup in Cuba & freaked out during the Cuban Missile Crisis and invaded Vietnam and countless other countries.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley
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guest18

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Re: Russia vs Ukraine war
« Reply #505 on: February 10, 2023, 05:31:07 pm »
A country that chooses to live in freedom and democracy should be allowed to join NATO to protect that choice. Putin agreed with that 25 years ago.
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Offline Coolio

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Re: Russia vs Ukraine war
« Reply #506 on: February 10, 2023, 07:45:03 pm »
Just in case anyone is still wondering why this war began in the first place.  Here is one of the reasons.  It doesn’t mean that Russia was right to invade.  But denying some of the reasons why it happened is denying truth. 

Russia’s got a point: The U.S. broke a NATO promise
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-shifrinson-russia-us-nato-deal--20160530-snap-story.html

1. That article is behind a paywall.

2. Ukraine and Russia signed off on a agreement in 1996, in which Ukraine would give all nuclear weapons they had, in exchage for the Russia promise that they would respect Ukrainian sovereignty, and not invade.  They lied.

3. That is NATO, not Ukraine.  Why should Ukraine suffer for some internal dispute between Russia and NATO.


No offence, but you sound like you do not have the best interests of North America in mind.

Offline Coolio

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Re: Russia vs Ukraine war
« Reply #507 on: February 10, 2023, 07:48:33 pm »
Any agreement should be in writing.  It doesn't matter what anyone says.  Robert Zoellick is a neocon piece of crap, he can't be believed.  I believe nothing any of these politicians say without evidence.

Russia/Putin is not a good faith actor so NATO can do whatever it wants anyways.  But did the Biden admin instigate the invasion?  Sure.  Would the US allow the Warsaw Pact on its doorstep, ie: Mexico?  No.  It tried a failed coup in Cuba & freaked out during the Cuban Missile Crisis and invaded Vietnam and countless other countries.

NATO should give Ukraine long range weapons that could hit Moscow. Putin is clearly bluffing, when he plays the "we got nukes" card. He knows that NATO would turn the whole country into dust, if Russia ever used nukes against an enemy..

Besides, I've lost track for the amount of times NATO has called Putin's bluff, and proceeds to arm the Ukraine regardless.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Russia vs Ukraine war
« Reply #508 on: February 10, 2023, 07:55:55 pm »
A country that chooses to live in freedom and democracy should be allowed to join NATO to protect that choice. Putin agreed with that 25 years ago.

Putin wants to annex much of eastern Ukraine.  Ukraine being a NATO member would have made that much harder, so he invaded.

However, having NATO on your border is also a threat to Russian security interests.  I think Putin half has a point and half is a conquering a-hole.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Russia vs Ukraine war
« Reply #509 on: February 10, 2023, 08:01:53 pm »
NATO should give Ukraine long range weapons that could hit Moscow. Putin is clearly bluffing, when he plays the "we got nukes" card. He knows that NATO would turn the whole country into dust, if Russia ever used nukes against an enemy..

Besides, I've lost track for the amount of times NATO has called Putin's bluff, and proceeds to arm the Ukraine regardless.

That would be like the USSR giving long-range missiles to Cuba that could hit Washington DC.  DC didn't like that very much...

If US and Russia want peace then make the Russia border states politically neutral.  No Russian or US/NATO political interference or security alliances.  But that is much, much harder than it sounds.  And Putin won't oblige.

Personally I think Russia should just give it a rest, relax, and join the rest of Europe in doing business and security and whatnot.  I don't get the chapped anus Russia still maintains. Putin is still fighting the Cold War in his own mind.  He's an idiot.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley
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