Author Topic: Outrage Over Israel Ignores Much Worse Outrages Against Other Muslims  (Read 441 times)

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Offline gh0sthacked

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Your first sentence is arrogant in tone.

It's not arrogant, it's called not putting up with being called an anti-semite every time I mention Israel. That played out enough on the other forum, let's NOT let it happen here. Otherwise I am telling you politely to **** off.  You want to debate, then debate. Call me names and I will tell you to **** off.

You are very tiresome to deal with.

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People on debate forums don't have to accept any opinion from you or anyone. Debate forums can and do generate different views.

Right, so when  I state my view, you have to accept it. You may not like it, but that is just the way it is.

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Your second sentence about Israel getting more criticism because its modernized is not factually based. You assume without any objective proof or statistics that if a country is modern it gets criticized more. You throw out Canada is criticized more with no statistics of comparison.

Fine , the REASON they WOULD get more criticism is because they are a modern/advanced nation.

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The double standard that a Muslim can have a Muslim sharia law nation, Britain can be an Anglican nation, Vatican City a Catholic one, India a Hindu one but Jews should not have a Jewish state has nothing to do with modernization and everything to do with the discriminatory concept that a Jew should not have the same rights to a national collective identity as other religious groups.

As I am not a religious person and I really think religions overall are terrible the notion of Israel being a Jewish nation is not something I would talk about. I don't care if they are Jewish or other. It's not the religion, but the acts of the collective that we are talking about. So when I talk Israel, I am talking Israel not about Jews.

Sharia Law is terrible and I don't support it.

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No one criticizes Israel for being modern except who you?

You are not understanding what I am saying and I am not sure I can make this any clearer for you.

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Your last sentence shows you are anti Israel and so perpetuate the myth and stereotype of Palestinians being victimized by a "bad" Israel.

You are blinded by your own long term bias against me from the other forum.

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Your description of Israel supposed to be doing "good" but doing "bad" are personal subjective assumptions based on your biases and no I don't have to accept them. They simply represent your subjective anti Israel opinions. In fact they  mean nothing to me.

Right, so are the settlements in the occupied territories a good thing or a bad thing? Let's talk about your own subjective-ness

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Objective criteria used to point out weaknesses or problems with specific Israeli state policies might.

I am not going through this here with you. Again, you and I agree on the settlements issue, which to me is Israel's biggest problem in terms of how the rest of the world sees them. UN says, get out of the occupied territories, and when people/nations agrees with that notion, the push back is in the form of calling people Jew haters.

NEXT!

Offline Rue

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I am going to respond to your comments inviting you to put me on hold or ignore.

You stated:

"It's not arrogant, it's called not putting up with being called an anti-semite every time I mention Israel. That played out enough on the other forum, let's NOT let it happen here. Otherwise I am telling you politely to **** off.  You want to debate, then debate. Call me names and I will tell you to **** off."

Your above comment had nothing to do with the words in your last post I challenged and why. Your words above manifest what appears to be an attempt to bait me into re-engaging in a dispute you think remains unresolved from the other forum. If you feel you have something unresolved from that forum, it belongs there not here. I i


Your comment: "You are very tiresome to deal with."   shows a disconnect from what you stated above. You in fact stated and I quote: "Call me names and I will tell you to **** off."

On the one hand you complain I call you names because I stated the tone of your words come across as arrogant, and then in the next breath in fact call me a name personally. You engage in dissonance, i.e., you engage in the very behaviour you claim should not be done by me.

I called your last comment out as arrogant for one reason and the same as when you repeated it again with this comment:

"Right, so when  I state my view, you have to accept it. You may not like it, but that is just the way it is. "

This is a debate forum. It's about freedom of speech and the right to disagree and explain why we disagree. No one is obliged to agree with you or me.


You stated:

"As I am not a religious person and I really think religions overall are terrible the notion of Israel being a Jewish nation is not something I would talk about. "

In fact you just did. This again shows dissonance.


You stated:

"I don't care if they are Jewish or other. It's not the religion, but the acts of the collective that we are talking about. So when I talk Israel, I am talking Israel not about Jews. "

Again you do care. In fact you make sure to show why you care in the last sentence of the above.You clearly manifest your rejection of Israel being a Jewish state when you  stated: " I am talking Israel not about Jews." Of course Israel is Jewish and about Jews. Your attempt to suggest the two are not connected is not only illogical but again manifests dissonance. For someone who repeats he doesn't care about Israel being Jewish or not you  go to great care to distinguish the two as being different.

You stated:

" You are blinded by your own long term bias against me from the other forum. "

Your decision to  re-engage in issues you have on the other forum are ignored.

You stated:

"Right, so are the settlements in the occupied territories a good thing or a bad thing? Let's talk about your own subjective-ness."

You posed the above as a question you wanted an answer to, then cut it off and state:

"I am not going through this here with you."

I again suggest you demonstrated with the above that you want to try control what I can discuss on this forum.


" Again, you and I agree on the settlements issue, which to me is Israel's biggest problem in terms of how the rest of the world sees them."

Israel does not have a problem with how the world sees it. It has a very real problem with how its own people and how Palestinians and the Arab world see it. If Israel had a problem with how the world saw it, it would never have come into existence and exist as we speak.

When 6 million Jews were slaughtered in Europe the world turned its back on Jews. Had Jews let that be a problem we would have not continued to exist. Israel is the existential expression of the Jewish collective identity precisely because it came to the conclusion Jews as a people could NEVER AGAIN worry about how the world saw them, but they themselves must take charge of how they see the world. It was an act of existential empowerment of saying- you refused to see us-in fact you tried to extinguish us-so we must see ourselves-we must envision ourselves.

Jews had to turn and rely on themselves. The UN, the world turned its back on Jewish refugees. With the exception of France and the US the rest of the world turned its back. There were the Czechs who trained Jews to survive, righteous gentiles who came to Israel to fight side by side Jews, there were Beduins, Druze and Jordanian Arab Muslims who died supporting Jews, but they were exceptions and they are all remembered.

The state of affairs on the West Bank is a raw wound used by terrorists who want a Muslim state in Israel to hold Palestinians captive to carry out their war. Its also been expropriated by certain extremist Jews to justify their hatred of Palestinians. Many of those terrorists are not and have never been Palestinian or Israeli but claim to speak for them and invent their own Palestinian status like Arafat did. He was an Egyptian. Some of the Jewish extremists did not express the views of Israeli citizens just themselves.

You stated:

"UN says, get out of the occupied territories, and when people/nations agrees with that notion, the push back is in the form of calling people Jew haters."

 You throw out the above reference to "push back" suggests you refer to a group you won't identify who you claim call people "Jew haters".  I would argue there is no such people or statement and that you invented and project both. I would argue you throw out a subjective stereotyped assumed belief,  posed as the statements or thoughts of others.


« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 07:20:26 pm by Rue »
You have me mistaken with an eagle. I only come to eat your carcass.

Offline cybercoma

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Ah yes. The band is back together.
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Offline JMT

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That was a LONG post.  Like, LONG.
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Offline the_squid

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Rue is the type of one-trick pony that I hope this forum doesn’t put up with for long...   Disagree with Rue?   You’re a Jew-hating anti Semite...     ::)

Offline Omni

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Rue is the type of one-trick pony that I hope this forum doesn’t put up with for long...   Disagree with Rue?   You’re a Jew-hating anti Semite...     ::)

I have to admit I long ago gave up wasting time reading paragraph after paragraph of what you just described. Read the first line, then the last line, pop some corn in between.

Offline SirJohn

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Rue is the type of one-trick pony that I hope this forum doesn’t put up with for long...   Disagree with Rue?   You’re a Jew-hating anti Semite...     ::)

While I disagree with some of his accusations it's also true that there are a number of anti-Semites back at MLW and they tend to use the same disreputable arguments. I don't think Gosthacked is one of them, though some of his arguments about them are sometimes similar on this issue, so Rue has evidently decided he is.

However, Rue also shows an insight and personal knowledge of things in the Middle East, and sometimes other areas which entirely puts to shame everyone else I've read on a discussion forum, and he persists in a middle path of expressing a lot of respect for Muslims even while condemning extremism. Yes, his posts are sometimes long (too long), but sometimes contain a hell of a lot of information about things most of us are unaware of. He is, generally, an excellent contributor to a discussion forum, and leagues above the likes of Omni.
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Offline JMT

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JMT what would you like me to say, **** off? Someone comes on this forum trying to carry on bullshit from another forum what would yu ou like me to do? Sit back and let this individual pose as my victim?

Tell you what, tell him to put me on ignore as I have him. I don't give a damn what forum I am on, I will defend myself from personal attacks. Nothing in my earlier responses to him warranted his response. Long? You find this long as well? What can I say, I am known for my length.

I think you need to develop a sense of humour.
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Offline JBG

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While I disagree with some of his accusations it's also true that there are a number of anti-Semites back at MLW and they tend to use the same disreputable arguments. I don't think Gosthacked is one of them, though some of his arguments about them are sometimes similar on this issue, so Rue has evidently decided he is.

However, Rue also shows an insight and personal knowledge of things in the Middle East, and sometimes other areas which entirely puts to shame everyone else I've read on a discussion forum, and he persists in a middle path of expressing a lot of respect for Muslims even while condemning extremism. Yes, his posts are sometimes long (too long), but sometimes contain a hell of a lot of information about things most of us are unaware of. He is, generally, an excellent contributor to a discussion forum, and leagues above the likes of Omni.
Ironically once upon a time Rue attacked me for being too anti-Muslim. The U.S. learned a lot about Islam on September 11, 2001. While the Canadian citizens were unfailing helpful and hospitable, i.e. Gander, it took a while for the atrocities to rub in up there.
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Offline JBG

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It's not arrogant, it's called not putting up with being called an anti-semite every time I mention Israel. That played out enough on the other forum, let's NOT let it happen here. Otherwise I am telling you politely to **** off.  You want to debate, then debate. Call me names and I will tell you to **** off.
To be fair I think that Jews find the double standard for Israel "tiresome." See below.

Fine , the REASON they WOULD get more criticism is because they are a modern/advanced nation.
Israel is one of the few advanced nations surrounded by Stone Age people equipped with modern weaponry. South Korea and Costa Rica may be the only such other cases, but the U.S., effectively occupying one and being a nearby neighbor of the other throws a wet blanket on trouble there. While the U.S. is a close ally of Israel it has always been ambivalent about the relationship and has never attacked the attackers of Israel. The same can't be said of South Korea.
Trump - Watch what he does, not how he says it.

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Offline Rue

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Ironically once upon a time Rue attacked me for being too anti-Muslim. The U.S. learned a lot about Islam on September 11, 2001. While the Canadian citizens were unfailing helpful and hospitable, i.e. Gander, it took a while for the atrocities to rub in up there.

Its not ironic  I practice what I preach. If someone uses extreme language whether its directed at all Jews or at Muslims, I challenge them for the exact same reasons.

This forum is not about me can we please discuss the issues.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 07:22:24 pm by Rue »
You have me mistaken with an eagle. I only come to eat your carcass.

Offline Rue

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That was a LONG post.  Like, LONG.

Please  understand your last comment to me  triggered a bunch of  responses diverting the topic to me.

« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 07:23:17 pm by Rue »
You have me mistaken with an eagle. I only come to eat your carcass.

Offline Rue

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I think you need to develop a sense of humour.

I have one but you triggered a cluster **** of  personal responses and with due respect because you are a moderator you set the tone.
You have me mistaken with an eagle. I only come to eat your carcass.

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Offline Rue

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There are double standards in the media as to how they treat international disputes, and every issue of conflict and event including the Israei-Palestinian one.

Examples of the issue you presented would require more than a sentence.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 07:10:28 pm by Rue »
You have me mistaken with an eagle. I only come to eat your carcass.