Author Topic: Covid Culture (was Outbreak Culture)  (Read 106457 times)

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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Covid Culture (was Outbreak Culture)
« Reply #1950 on: September 11, 2020, 01:37:06 am »
5 out of the top 10 countries with the most deaths per capita are in South America and they are nowhere near containment.  Heart-breaking.

Offline wilber

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Re: Covid Culture (was Outbreak Culture)
« Reply #1951 on: September 12, 2020, 05:29:30 pm »
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline waldo

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Re: Covid Culture (was Outbreak Culture)
« Reply #1952 on: September 13, 2020, 06:11:26 am »
The fact is, we are way behind other Western countries when it comes to securing supplies but your blind partisanship could never allow you to acknowledge that.

fact? The waldo calls bullshyte on your claim... step-up and state the facts behind your claim - sure you can!  ;D Here's your reference point:

to-date, secured formal dose agreements have been reached between the Government of Canada and the following drug manufacturers using their respective candidate vaccines:

=> Pfizer - BNT162
=> Moderna - mRNA-1273
=> Novavax - NVX-CoV2373
=> Johnson & Johnson - Ad26.COV2-S
=> University of Oxford / AstraZeneca - ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 (Canada is in the final stages of negotiations to secure this candidate)
still waiting member wilber; still waiting!
still waiting member wilber; still waiting!

good on ya member wilber! Good on ya... for recognizing that you still haven't responded to the waldo challenging your bullshyte claim - good on ya!

by the by, a summary of those candidates presently in Phase 3 clinical trials:


Offline eyeball

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Re: Covid Culture (was Outbreak Culture)
« Reply #1953 on: September 14, 2020, 01:14:33 pm »
If I've said it once I've said it a thousand times, sneaky secretive politicians and governments are the bane of human existence.

Quote
http://Woodward's Trump revelations raise questions about Canada's response to COVID-19
Canada and the U.S. share intelligence — so what did the federal government know, and when?

Who knows when virtually everything governments and politicians do is done behind closed doors and with their more immediate political fortunes foremost in their minds?  It's been clear since Li Wenliang's arrest and death that one of the greatest risk factors for contracting COVID-19 are sneaky stupid politicians and governments.

Quote
Wesley Wark, a professor at the University of Ottawa and one of the country's foremost experts on Canada's intelligence agencies, said the U.S. likely had better reconnaissance on the virus than the Canadian government did in the early days.

But Wark said he believes it's "very likely" that some information about the real threat posed by this virus flowed from the U.S. to Canada, especially at the "liaison" level between U.S. officials and Canadians embedded at the embassy in Washington.

He said that, like many U.S. officials, the federal government here downplayed some hard truths of the pandemic, such as the risk of asymptomatic transmission.

Wark goes on to ask, "What was the evidence that the Canadian public was prone to panic about the government being bold about the truth? Where's the evidence?"

I'd say it's been evident everywhere forever given how naturally adverse governments and politicians are towards accountability. And it's not just politicians given the reaction displayed by partisans against holding politicians to better account.  How often are we told the public couldn't handle the sort of 'frank discussions' that take place where the official rubber hits the public road if we tried outlawing in-camera lobbying for example?

Like so many other deficiencies COVID-19 has underscored official accountability and forthrightness should shine out at the very top of a long list of deficiencies afflicting our world - this single deficiency bar none, is why there are so many others.


Edited to add; Perhaps the Outrage Culture thread would be a better place for this, it seems outrageous enough.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2020, 01:16:32 pm by eyeball »

Offline waldo

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Re: Covid Culture (was Outbreak Culture)
« Reply #1954 on: September 14, 2020, 01:36:18 pm »
If I've said it once I've said it a thousand times, sneaky secretive politicians and governments are the bane of human existence.

most countries... Canada... given that a global response to the pandemic is essential, turns to the World Health Organization for virus information. That being said, Canada is a key member of the Five Eyes and has important security-and-intelligence partnership with the United States in the Five Eyes, in NATO and in NORAD. Your linked article's claimed "security expert" offers no direct/specific information or details - he relies entirely on speculation as to what information was shared between allies - clearly an article aimed at those predisposed to conspiracy themes!


Offline eyeball

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Re: Covid Culture (was Outbreak Culture)
« Reply #1955 on: September 14, 2020, 01:51:12 pm »
Your linked article's claimed "security expert" offers no direct/specific information or details - he relies entirely on speculation as to what information was shared between allies - clearly an article aimed at those predisposed to conspiracy themes!
He relies on informed speculation. There's little but speculation when official sources are so closed lipped - the lack of timely transparency is not a conspiracy it just is what it is.  In any case there's little that stays secret for very long.

Would it be fair to say you too would regard outlawing in-camera lobbying as an attack against free speech?

Offline wilber

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Re: Covid Culture (was Outbreak Culture)
« Reply #1956 on: September 14, 2020, 02:25:37 pm »
most countries... Canada... given that a global response to the pandemic is essential, turns to the World Health Organization for virus information. That being said, Canada is a key member of the Five Eyes and has important security-and-intelligence partnership with the United States in the Five Eyes, in NATO and in NORAD. Your linked article's claimed "security expert" offers no direct/specific information or details - he relies entirely on speculation as to what information was shared between allies - clearly an article aimed at those predisposed to conspiracy themes!

So the CBC is now into conspiracy themes.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline waldo

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Re: Covid Culture (was Outbreak Culture)
« Reply #1957 on: September 15, 2020, 12:28:14 pm »
So the CBC is now into conspiracy themes.

not at all surprising you can't delineate speculative "experts" from lax/lazy journalists from media/publishers


still waiting member wilber... still waiting for you to support your claimed fact!

The fact is, we are way behind other Western countries when it comes to securing supplies but your blind partisanship could never allow you to acknowledge that.

fact? The waldo calls bullshyte on your claim... step-up and state the facts behind your claim - sure you can!  ;D Here's your reference point:

to-date, secured formal dose agreements have been reached between the Government of Canada and the following drug manufacturers using their respective candidate vaccines:

=> Pfizer - BNT162
=> Moderna - mRNA-1273
=> Novavax - NVX-CoV2373
=> Johnson & Johnson - Ad26.COV2-S
=> University of Oxford / AstraZeneca - ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 (Canada is in the final stages of negotiations to secure this candidate)

Offline wilber

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Re: Covid Culture (was Outbreak Culture)
« Reply #1958 on: September 15, 2020, 02:00:53 pm »
not at all surprising you can't delineate speculative "experts" from lax/lazy journalists from media/publishers


still waiting member wilber... still waiting for you to support your claimed fact!

fact? The waldo calls bullshyte on your claim... step-up and state the facts behind your claim - sure you can!  ;D Here's your reference point:

to-date, secured formal dose agreements have been reached between the Government of Canada and the following drug manufacturers using their respective candidate vaccines:

=> Pfizer - BNT162
=> Moderna - mRNA-1273
=> Novavax - NVX-CoV2373
=> Johnson & Johnson - Ad26.COV2-S
=> University of Oxford / AstraZeneca - ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 (Canada is in the final stages of negotiations to secure this candidate)

How many other countries have secured similar agreements ahead of us. We are in the final stage of negotiations with AstraZeneca. So what, over a billion doses are already spoken for.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Covid Culture (was Outbreak Culture)
« Reply #1959 on: September 15, 2020, 02:46:22 pm »
How many other countries have secured similar agreements ahead of us. We are in the final stage of negotiations with AstraZeneca. So what, over a billion doses are already spoken for.

So the other countries are ahead of us to get their doses?  Need a cite for that.
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Offline wilber

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Re: Covid Culture (was Outbreak Culture)
« Reply #1960 on: September 15, 2020, 04:48:11 pm »
So the other countries are ahead of us to get their doses?  Need a cite for that.

They are for some. Between the US, UK, EU and individual European countries about a billion doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine were spoken for back in May and that doesn't include countries that have ordered it since. I'm not sure about Pfizer and Moderna, although the US has ordered some from them. The other two are in earlier trials and you can forget about the Chinese, they have shown us where they stand with CanSino.

PS. The UK ordered 90 million doses from Pfizer back in July.

https://www.ft.com/content/1e928cb6-57fb-4384-9c2c-9000c44eacc0
https://www.ft.com/content/4b216c2e-2558-4308-b9c2-bf805b08e949
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/european-commission-agrees-to-buy-300-million-doses-of-astrazeneca-covid-19-vaccine-2020-08-14
« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 04:59:06 pm by wilber »
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Covid Culture (was Outbreak Culture)
« Reply #1961 on: September 15, 2020, 06:53:34 pm »
They are for some. Between the US, UK, EU and individual European countries about a billion doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine were spoken for back in May and that doesn't include countries that have ordered it since. I'm not sure about Pfizer and Moderna, although the US has ordered some from them. The other two are in earlier trials and you can forget about the Chinese, they have shown us where they stand with CanSino.

PS. The UK ordered 90 million doses from Pfizer back in July.

https://www.ft.com/content/1e928cb6-57fb-4384-9c2c-9000c44eacc0
https://www.ft.com/content/4b216c2e-2558-4308-b9c2-bf805b08e949
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/european-commission-agrees-to-buy-300-million-doses-of-astrazeneca-covid-19-vaccine-2020-08-14

Yes, they ordered earlier...   does that mean they get their doses first?  Or are they handing out doses based on a per capita system?  Or whomever pays the most?    That's the cite we need...  something that says because Canada was last to order, therefor, Canada will be last to get the doses.

Your links are useless as they require subscriptions.

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Offline wilber

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Re: Covid Culture (was Outbreak Culture)
« Reply #1962 on: September 15, 2020, 10:44:45 pm »
Yes, they ordered earlier...   does that mean they get their doses first?  Or are they handing out doses based on a per capita system?  Or whomever pays the most?    That's the cite we need...  something that says because Canada was last to order, therefor, Canada will be last to get the doses.

Your links are useless as they require subscriptions.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/u-k-orders-90-million-vaccine-doses-from-pfizer-valneva-1.1467772
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/game-changer-u-s-orders-up-to-600-million-doses-of-pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine
https://nypost.com/2020/08/14/european-commission-orders-astrazenecas-covid-19-vaccine/
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-astrazeneca-idUSKBN22X0J9


There are lots of links and are easy to find. Why order early if you aren't reserving slots? If you aren't getting some kind of priority, why not wait till testing is finished?

I don't know that we will be last but we sure won't be at the head of the list.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Covid Culture (was Outbreak Culture)
« Reply #1963 on: September 15, 2020, 11:56:49 pm »
https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/u-k-orders-90-million-vaccine-doses-from-pfizer-valneva-1.1467772
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/game-changer-u-s-orders-up-to-600-million-doses-of-pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine
https://nypost.com/2020/08/14/european-commission-orders-astrazenecas-covid-19-vaccine/
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-astrazeneca-idUSKBN22X0J9


There are lots of links and are easy to find. Why order early if you aren't reserving slots? If you aren't getting some kind of priority, why not wait till testing is finished?

I don't know that we will be last but we sure won't be at the head of the list.

So none of your links say how the orders will be filled between the different countries.  I’m already aware that many countries have ordered vaccines from several companies. 

Please provide a cite that states which number Canada is in the line, since your contention is that we’re way down near the bottom. 
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Offline waldo

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Re: Covid Culture (was Outbreak Culture)
« Reply #1964 on: September 16, 2020, 12:22:25 am »
There are lots of links and are easy to find. Why order early if you aren't reserving slots? If you aren't getting some kind of priority, why not wait till testing is finished?

I don't know that we will be last but we sure won't be at the head of the list.

that's right - YOU DON'T KNOW! You don't know ALL the particulars of so-called pre-purchase agreements. You don't know which countries are relying entirely upon outside manufacturing of successful vaccine candidates... or which countries, per agreement, have secured the rights to manufacture the vaccine themselves... or which countries will be relying upon a mix of outside manufacturing and, per agreement, secured rights to allow in-country manufacturing. YOU DON'T KNOW!

of course, a key facet is whether or not countries have existing capable manufacturing ability or the means to retrofit/change existing manufacturing to align with successful vaccine requirements. Like Canada, moving to expand existing manufacturing and create new manufacturing capability:
as I mentioned in an earlier Aug 17 post, this latest announcement is over and above the financial support the Government of Canada initially provided for upgrades to the existing NRC Royalmount Avenue biomanufacturing facility in Montréal; specifically, upgrades to complete in late 2020/early 2021. As for today's latest announcement concerning a new NRC facility... with a completion timeline must sooner than your stated 'will take two years (hopefully)' period; specifically:

---

ultimately, this rush to so-called "Vaccine Nationalism" will be tempered with a realization that the global nature of the pandemic requires ALL countries receive a vaccine in the same general timeframe... which realistically... practically, means per-country selective vaccination of essential persons, those at high(er) risk, etc.. Obviously, we are not safe unless everyone is safe - a country can't go back to "normal" if raging epidemics persist across much of the rest of the world - GLOBAL economic recovery!