Author Topic: Covid Culture (was Outbreak Culture)  (Read 106145 times)

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guest78

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #975 on: April 14, 2020, 01:00:51 pm »
Has Trudeau thought of one original idea yet, or does he just copy what Trump does, but a week later.  I saw that he’s also coordinated with business to produce ventilators.  Hopefully the ones we have in our stockpile will be sufficient until then.  Oh wait there is no national stockpile.
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Offline waldo

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #976 on: April 14, 2020, 01:07:47 pm »
I’m not a Trump cheerleader, I’m just not suffering from TDS, so it may look like I am.  If anyone’s a cheerleader, it’s you for China.  Sad.

as I said in response to your earlier Trump Derangement Syndrome (TDS) labeling, you sir, you are at DEFCON2 in TrumpianForceReadiness (TFR)!

you mistake my applying rigour to your unsubstantiated/misinforming statements & claims about China as leading a cheer; again, you are a most worthy Trumpian soldier following the latest emphasis to attempt to cast the WHO/China as deflecting points for Trump's incompetence and dithering in handling the COVID-19 pandemic.

guest78

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #977 on: April 14, 2020, 01:23:20 pm »
as I said in response to your earlier Trump Derangement Syndrome (TDS) labeling, you sir, you are at DEFCON2 in TrumpianForceReadiness (TFR)!

you mistake my applying rigour to your unsubstantiated/misinforming statements & claims about China as leading a cheer; again, you are a most worthy Trumpian soldier following the latest emphasis to attempt to cast the WHO/China as deflecting points for Trump's incompetence and dithering in handling the COVID-19 pandemic.
Claims about China aren’t unsubstantiated.  I’ve cited them, and they’ve been widely covered by the press.  You still haven’t acknowledged China’s roll in this pandemic and their irresponsible behaviour.  All because you have some sick and twisted idea that it supports Trump.  Shame on you.  Shame on all of you for carrying water for an authoritarian dictatorship, trying to hold Trump more accountable than you do the source of the pandemic.  You all need to get some serious help.
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Offline wilber

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #978 on: April 14, 2020, 01:28:49 pm »
Believe it or not, it’s possible to not like Trump, but also hold China accountable for their actions.  It’s not an either or.

Sure it is but blaming China will do nothing to deal with this virus in North America.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

guest78

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #979 on: April 14, 2020, 01:33:44 pm »
Sure it is but blaming China will do nothing to deal with this virus in North America.
That wasn’t the discussion.  Re read previous posts.
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #980 on: April 14, 2020, 01:35:03 pm »
Sure it is but blaming China will do nothing to deal with this virus in North America.

Deflecting from the crap job the Feds (Trump) are doing is the entire goal.

China may have responsibility to bear in this whole thing...  Kimmy makes excellent points in her post.  Shady is just deflecting in his.

The time to look at punitive measures on China is not now though.  It’s going to take many months to sort this out once we, as a world, get it under control.
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Offline waldo

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #981 on: April 14, 2020, 01:36:24 pm »
Claims about China aren’t unsubstantiated.  I’ve cited them, and they’ve been widely covered by the press.  You still haven’t acknowledged China’s roll in this pandemic and their irresponsible behaviour.  All because you have some sick and twisted idea that it supports Trump.  Shame on you.  Shame on all of you for carrying water for an authoritarian dictatorship, trying to hold Trump more accountable than you do the source of the pandemic.  You all need to get some serious help.

your limited cites are nothing more than pasted go-fetch links. You ignored the following earlier - I appreciate responding to this request/challenge would require you to actually do some real research/analysis and articulate an actual argument... is that why you ignored it?  ;D

please substantiate your statement: "the inexcusably wrong assessment from the WHO"... what wrong assessment, made when?

your nattering about "muzzled scientists" needs contextual reference and a relevant timeline. I appreciate you're used to just sayin' whatever, but again, on this board substantiation is the norm. What's most pointedly needed is for you to provide the period of time over which said "irresponsible behaviour & scientist muzzling" occurred... that is to say, what impact it had.

you speak of, "China dealing with COVID all through December" - please provide details and a timeline that supports your statement, with particular attention given to your "all through December" reference. I've put forward numerous posts that have dated events within them... events that align with formal notifications made by China to international health organizations/the WHO; events that correlate with published scientific papers; the sharing of sequenced genome data, etc..

I look forward to reading your factual, legitimate and substantiated accounting of your claimed irresponsible behaviour/scientists muzzling by China - and, again, most pointedly how that aligns/fits within the broader public knowledge of China notifications and actions taken to aid foreign governments/international health organizations/scientific community.

China was slammed for initial COVID-19 secrecy, but its scientists led the way in tackling the virus

Quote
The accusation that the Chinese government delayed in letting the world know about the COVID-19 outbreak has become a political weapon in countries including the US, the UK and Canada.

But China’s scientists have won international praise for hitting several key milestones in understanding the novel, fast-moving virus.

Chinese leaders were seen as slow to react to the outbreak that began in the city of Wuhan, suppressing information and even punishing those who raised the alarm.

There was an early cover up in Wuhan, perhaps a few days to a week, before the threat was accepted. We will never know if faster action in those first days could have averted the outbreak,” said Ian Jones, professor of biomedical sciences at Reading University.

Despite the initial slow reaction from the government, “There has been a very open dialogue [since] and many research findings from the Chinese experience are now appearing,” says Jones.

In January, a team led by Yong-Zhen Zhang, of the Shanghai Public Health Clinical Centre & School of Public Health, published the initial viral genome on two open-access sites, drawing praise for the swiftest sequencing effort ever. Later that month, Chinese doctors and scientists reported the first description of the new disease in the Lancet medical journal.

“Under immense pressure, as the epidemic exploded around them, they took time to write up their findings in a foreign language and seek publication in a medical journal thousands of miles away. Their rapid and rigorous work was an urgent warning to the world. We owe those scientists enormous thanks,” said Richard Horton, Lancet editor.

At the University of Hong Kong, researchers are developing a COVID-19 vaccine, novel screening agents, diagnostic tests and models of infection to trace the source and help prevent future occurrences.

“[We] were among the first teams in the world to produce a detailed cluster report, epidemiology report, electron microscope images and mathematical model of the potential spread of the virus,” said Zhang Xiang, president and vice-chancellor of the university. “Most Hong Kong residents still remember the experience of living through SARS in 2003, several instances of avian influenza, MERS, and now COVID-19.”

Any disagreements over how countries have managed the epidemic has not trickled down into labs, says Michael Head, a senior research fellow in global health in the University of Southampton. “Whilst there will always be the politics of mistrust, I think, broadly, we’re seeing reasonable cooperation between China and elsewhere,” he said.

The Chinese have been leading the way in publishing open-access evidence on case management, genomics and numerous areas of public health and epidemiology, which has been vital in informing the response in more or less every country.”

guest78

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #982 on: April 14, 2020, 01:37:31 pm »
Deflecting from the crap job the Feds (Trump) are doing is the entire goal.

China may have responsibility to bear in this whole thing...  Kimmy makes excellent points in her post.  Shady is just deflecting in his.

The time to look at punitive measures on China is not now though.  It’s going to take many months to sort this out once we, as a world, get it under control.
If Trump did a crappy job than so did Trudeau.
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guest78

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #983 on: April 14, 2020, 01:39:11 pm »
your limited cites are nothing more than pasted go-fetch links. You ignored the following earlier - I appreciate responding to this request/challenge would require you to actually do some real research/analysis and articulate an actual argument... is that why you ignored it?  ;D
My cites aren’t limited, your ability to interpret them is though.  The Atlantic article goes into great detail.  If you don’t wish to read it, that’s on you.  Keep carrying water for China.
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Offline waldo

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #984 on: April 14, 2020, 01:47:39 pm »
My cites aren’t limited, your ability to interpret them is though.  The Atlantic article goes into great detail.  If you don’t wish to read it, that’s on you.  Keep carrying water for China.

now that's the Shady I recall! You simply ignore rebuffs of your nonsense - again, as I said, I'd previously addressed your go-fetch link. Here, will you ignore this again?  ;D

Important read!

How China Deceived the WHO

Back in January, when the pandemic now consuming the world was still gathering force, a Berkeley research scientist named Xiao Qiang was monitoring China’s official statements about a new coronavirus then spreading through Wuhan and noticed something disturbing. Statements made by the World Health Organization, the international body that advises the world on handling health crises, often echoed China’s messages. “Particularly at the beginning, it was shocking when I again and again saw WHO’s [director-general], when he spoke to the press … almost directly quoting what I read on the Chinese government’s statements,”

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/04/world-health-organization-blame-pandemic-coronavirus/609820/

member latecomerShady, already covered. As follows a MuchMoreAccurate Important Read!

Well turns out the WHO is a corrupt organization that worries about politics not just global health and covered for China when it was lying about COVID.  The WHO needs to be held accountable for the lives it has cost based on the bad advice it gave the world.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/04/world-health-organization-blame-pandemic-coronavirus/609820/

Now calm yourself, cause the waldo ain't sayin the WHO doesn't warrant criticism; however, it should be legitimate/properly investigated and completely free of partisan political influence (willingly or not).

the waldo took just one of your links (from the Atlantic) for shytes&giggles; the whole article delves on a single WHO tweet from January 14; this one that references PRELIMINARY investigations... NO clear evidence:


from an earlier post; one coincident to that same January 14 date showing actual notifications from the formal WHO COVID-19 timeline:
...
the mid-January notifications from the WHO... that I'm aware of:

Quote
14 January 2020 --- WHO's technical lead for the response noted in a press briefing there may have been limited human-to-human transmission of the coronavirus (in the 41 confirmed cases), mainly through family members, and that there was a risk of a possible wider outbreak. The lead also said that human-to-human transmission would not be surprising given our experience with SARS, MERS and other respiratory pathogens. 

22 January 2020 --- WHO mission to China issued a statement saying that there was evidence of human-to-human transmission in Wuhan but more investigation was needed to understand the full extent of transmission.


you're so full of shyte and the waste of time I've always associated you with! My time-wasting allotment has run out for now - CU later!  ;D

guest78

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #985 on: April 14, 2020, 01:52:44 pm »
now that's the Shady I recall! You simply ignore rebuffs of your nonsense - again, as I said, I'd previously addressed your go-fetch link. Here, will you ignore this again?  ;D

member latecomerShady, already covered. As follows a MuchMoreAccurate Important Read!

Now calm yourself, cause the waldo ain't sayin the WHO doesn't warrant criticism; however, it should be legitimate/properly investigated and completely free of partisan political influence (willingly or not).

the waldo took just one of your links (from the Atlantic) for shytes&giggles; the whole article delves on a single WHO tweet from January 14; this one that references PRELIMINARY investigations... NO clear evidence:


from an earlier post; one coincident to that same January 14 date showing actual notifications from the formal WHO COVID-19 timeline:


you're so full of shyte and the waste of time I've always associated you with! My time-wasting allotment has run out for now - CU later!  ;D
The only one full of shyte is China.  And you for defending them.  It’s truly pathetic.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #986 on: April 14, 2020, 01:56:16 pm »
If Trump did a crappy job than so did Trudeau.

Is that how the US has over 28 times the deaths with a little over 8 times our population?

Offline kimmy

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #987 on: April 15, 2020, 02:48:02 am »
now that's the Shady I recall! You simply ignore rebuffs of your nonsense - again, as I said, I'd previously addressed your go-fetch link. Here, will you ignore this again?  ;D

you're so full of shyte and the waste of time I've always associated you with! My time-wasting allotment has run out for now - CU later!  ;D

Funny but no. the Shade Man is 100% right here.  He provided a real cite: The Atlantic, a well-respected, left-leaning source. For you to dismiss this as a "go-fetch link" just smacks of intellectual dishonesty.

Since the waldo's time is apparently too precious to waste on respectable sources like The Atlantic, the kimmo will parse key portions of it:

Quote
Back in January, when the pandemic now consuming the world was still gathering force, a Berkeley research scientist named Xiao Qiang was monitoring China’s official statements about a new coronavirus then spreading through Wuhan and noticed something disturbing. Statements made by the World Health Organization, the international body that advises the world on handling health crises, often echoed China’s messages. “Particularly at the beginning, it was shocking when I again and again saw WHO’s [director-general], when he spoke to the press … almost directly quoting what I read on the Chinese government’s statements,” he told me.

This, we now know, was catastrophically untrue, and in the months since, the global pandemic has put much of the world under an unprecedented lockdown and killed more than 100,000 people.

(...)

Even in January, when Chinese authorities were downplaying the extent of the virus, doctors at the epicenter of the outbreak in Wuhan reportedly observed human-to-human transmission, not least by contracting the disease themselves. In the most famous example, Dr. Li Wenliang was censured for “spreading rumors” after trying to alert other doctors of the new respiratory ailment; he later died of the virus himself at age 33. China now claims him as a martyr. Asked about Li’s case at a press conference, the executive director of the WHO’s Health Emergencies Programme, Michael Ryan, said, “We all mourn the loss of a fellow physician and colleague” but stopped short of condemning China for accusing him. “There is an understandable confusion that occurs at the beginning of an epidemic,” Ryan added. “So we need to be careful to label misunderstanding versus misinformation; there's a difference. People can misunderstand and they can overreact.”

Those lost early weeks also coincided with the Chinese New Year, for which millions of people travel to visit family and friends. “That’s when millions of Wuhan people were misinformed,” Xiao said. “Then they traveled all over China, all over the world.”

The Atlantic article explains that, in short, the WHO's information is only as good as the regimes that it depends on for information, and in the case of dogshit regimes like the PRC, the information coming from the WHO is pretty near worthless. For China to have told WHO in mid January that there was no evidence of human-to-human transmission is simply a bald-faced lie.  The WHO reliance on statements like that from member organizations is a structural deficiency of WHO. And for Canada to take that statement from WHO as a factual basis for the formulation of public policy is sheer idiocy.


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Offline kimmy

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #988 on: April 15, 2020, 03:45:19 am »
While I am fully aware that the Republitards are doing this for narrative purposes (to make it something that "they" did to "us", to shift attention away from their own shoddy response) I don't think we should be in any rush to forget China's role in creating this disaster. 

Firstly we can thank China's prolific animal trafficking trade and the idiocy of "traditional Chinese medicine" for the fact that this virus ever came into contact with humans.

And secondly let's remember that China's early response to the outbreak was to jail people for saying that there was an outbreak. As much as we mock the Trump administration's handling of this, let's keep in mind that China's was 1000 times worse. They have a lot to answer for.

I think China should be paying reparations when this is over, especially to Italy and the other hardest-hit countries.

Ooooh, it's not just Kimmy saying this.

Former Liberal Justice Minister Irwin Cotler:
Quote
Former Liberal justice minister Irwin Cotler, a leading international champion of human rights, is blaming the Chinese government for the scale and spread of the COVID-19 pandemic, saying he believes transmission of the novel coronavirus could have been dramatically reduced if China had acted earlier.

He also says the world would have been far more prepared to handle the outbreak if Chinese Communist Party officials had acted sooner, alleging government authorities covered up and hid early news of the outbreak.

Mr. Cotler is urging Canada to impose Magnitsky-style sanctions on Chinese officials who mistreated or silenced whistleblowers, including medical staff and citizens, in the early days of the pandemic. The Sergei Magnitsky Law allows Canada to impose asset freezes and travel bans on human rights abusers around the world.

The former minister said he expects there will be lawsuits to try and seek reparations from China but he said governments such as Canada’s need do to their part to hold Beijing accountable.

“The Chinese Communist Party has to be held accountable through naming and shaming, in the court of public opinion, in actual courts of law through international tort actions, and through Magnitsky sanctions,” Mr. Cotler said in an interview.

“We can target those who have been responsible for the disappearances of the doctors, such as Dr. Ai Fen, director of the emergency department at the Central Hospital of Wuhan, who has now disappeared."

Dr. Fen shared her early concerns about the virus with colleagues and media. After Dr. Ai shared the information, eight doctors were arrested, including Li Wenliang, another whistleblower who later died of COVID-19.

Mr. Cotler said China kept information from the public at a crucial early period and cited a British study by the University of Southampton which suggested that 95 per cent of infections could have been avoided if China had acted three weeks earlier.

The virus outbreak began in Wuhan, China, in late 2019.

“For 40 days, President Xi Jinping’s Communist Party of China concealed, destroyed, falsified and fabricated information about the rampant spread of COVID-19 through its state-sanctioned massive surveillance and suppression of data; its misrepresentation of information; its silencing and criminalizing of its dissent; and its disappearance of its whistleblowers,” Mr. Cotler wrote along with Judith Abitan, executive director of the Montreal-based Raoul Wallenberg Centre for Human Rights. Their column was published by the Times of Israel as well as by The Globe and Mail.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-former-liberal-justice-minister-urges-sanctions-against-chinese/


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Offline waldo

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #989 on: April 15, 2020, 08:01:55 am »
After tiring of Federal inaction, BC is now requiring anyone arriving from a foreign country to have an isolation plan and if they don't, the province is quarantining them on its own and doing followups on those who are supposed to be self isolating.
And the Feds followed suit shortly after...  same restrictions.

My only concern is that Canada acted later than it should have due to humming and hawing over the political consequences of restricting people’s behaviour/movements, or what it thought Chinese-Canadians might think.   Once this pandemic is done, hopefully the opposition parties get some answers. i don’t hold much hope that the NDP would be less PC though.
Dix was expressing his frustration over this for some time before the province finally gave up and did it on its own.
I can only wonder if the feds did it because they didn't want to be shown up by their BC counterparts.
You do have to wonder if they would have otherwise done it.
It makes me really effing PO'd at the thought of a leader who would rather risk people's lives than offend people.  Our PM has a psychological disease and I hope after this it makes him well cured of it.  I'm fed up of it.

member wilber and pile-on-posse: March 25 - under the Federal Quarantine Act, all travelers returning to Canada — with the exception of "essential workers (eg. truckers, health care workers)", will have to enter a mandatory 14 days of isolation under the Quarantine Act whether or not they have symptoms of coronavirus. As the waldo understands, if a designated Quarantine Officer believes that a traveler has refused to isolate themselves, they can ask a peace officer to arrest the traveler and bring them into quarantine.

now certainly, it is the prerogative of any province to enact mandatory isolation requirements under their own 'emergency measures act'... like B.C. did on April 10th. But yes, as the waldo understands, on April 14th, the federal government did update it's March 25th order to provide additional flexibility considerations: to give border agents the ability to assign a self-isolation order (rather than a mandatory quarantine) if a traveler can present an acceptable self-isolation plan.

as the waldo understands, following the dynamics at play, these self-isolation plan requirements are being considered in relation to an expected increase in "snowbird returnees"... those who chose to ignore the early March 'suggestion' from the federal government that they return home (which required self-isolation for 14 days); chose to instead ride out their stay to align with the allowed maximum ~6-month away period... those choosing sunnier climes over returning to self-isolation.

member wilber and pile-on posse: details matter... but yes, they do take some degree of effort to properly understand/present.