Author Topic: Covid Culture (was Outbreak Culture)  (Read 106460 times)

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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #795 on: April 08, 2020, 11:53:09 pm »
I haven't been looking at every country's responses, but Trump, Trudeau, provincial governments, Italian government, Chinese gov etc.  They've all made mistakes.  Some more than others, or bigger mistakes than others.  They are run by humans, and all humans are fallible.  Mistakes will be made, the goal is to hopefully have a government that makes as few mistakes as possible.  When you're dealing with a deadly virus, any mistake can cost lives.  That's a crazy responsibility.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #796 on: April 08, 2020, 11:56:25 pm »
But questioning whether they made the best decision with the information they had is a lot different from deliberately spreading misinformation, or suppressing information.

That right there was the point I made earlier about Trump and Johnson.  Yes, you can argue that they didn't jail doctors, but on the flip side, at least they had ample information to work with when they made their terrible decisions.  Which is worse?

We can all be justifiably mad that we are in this quagmire, but suing and holding governments 'accountable' seems a bit unrealistic. 

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #797 on: April 09, 2020, 12:00:23 am »
It would be funny if they can't develop a vaccine and 70% of us inevitable will get it no matter what so all of this shutdown was in vain.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley
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Offline waldo

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #798 on: April 09, 2020, 12:11:37 am »
I think we're **** until we all get vaccinated.
It would be funny if they can't develop a vaccine and 70% of us inevitable will get it no matter what so all of this shutdown was in vain.

which may be more difficult than typical efforts/timelines; albeit still in prelim release, a study is out that has provided the first systematic examination of antibody levels in patients who had recovered from Covid-19... the initial aim of the study was to attempt to determine whether some recovered COVID-19 patients have a higher risk of reinfection after finding surprisingly low levels of Covid-19 antibodies in a number of people discharged from hospital. Of 175 patients reviewed, nearly a third had unexpectedly low levels of antibodies - and in some cases, antibodies could not be detected at all.

study authors state the low-level of antibodies might be too low to provide natural immunity to a potential future encounter with the virus... with broader implications toward possibly impacting upon herd immunity - that resistance to the disease among the general population to stop its spread. It is speculated that those patients exhibiting low-level/no antibodies but might have beaten back COVID-19 with other parts of the immune system such as T-cells or cytokines. In any case, if the real virus could not induce antibody response in a third of the patients reviewed, the weakened version in a vaccine might not work in these patients either.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #799 on: April 09, 2020, 12:12:46 am »
you claimed a factual certainty... and your own linked article cautioned against your zeal: "Prof Andrew Cunningham of Zoological Society of London (ZSL) said it was important not to jump to conclusions from the paper. "The source of the detected coronavirus really is unknown - it might have been a natural pangolin virus or have jumped from another species between capture and death.""

you're not the grandMysteryHuntingMaven you aspire to; you have a most circumspect history of preferring "alternative facts", particularly those that you find a way to craft to your self-serving agenda. You speak of "experts looking closely at the Wuhan live animal market"... for good reason you say. But somehow, you manage to ignore the study I referenced and the data/graphic that; again:
as for your questioned likelihood, as I read/infer, it's likely an intermediary animal brought the virus into the market... and without any known historical direct linkages between bats and humans, it's just as likely that the intermediary animal might be a domestic animal bitten by a bat... a domestic animal brought into the market for sale.


So is it your position that since we don't know for sure that the current pandemic resulted from animal trafficking, we don't need to worry about it in the future?

If it is, that's a patently stupid idea.

It's proven they caused the last one, it's more than likely they caused this one, and it's only a matter of time before they cause another one. 


As for the possibility that it was domestic animals, I read an article recently arguing that the "wet markets" wouldn't need to be closed if the wild animals weren't there. That's because China's domestic animals have been demonstrated to have low rates of disease, not much different than western animals.


As for your graph, a quick glance at it is all one needs to see how much information is missing.  A 10-day gap between the first and 2nd case alone should be a big clue how much they don't know about those early days.  They don't know that that was the first case, they don't know how many asymptomatic carriers there were, they don't know how many people were sick but didn't seek medical care, and given that animal trafficking is "illegal, wink wink" in China, they also probably don't know who was or wasn't actually involved in animal trafficking.

So holding up your little graph and saying "look, the first guy didn't even go to the market!" isn't very convincing. It's kind of sad, really.

I'm still wondering why you're lawyering on behalf of these scumbags. Why are you standing up for such despicable people?

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline waldo

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #800 on: April 09, 2020, 12:14:19 am »
So is it your position that since we don't know for sure that the current pandemic resulted from animal trafficking, we don't need to worry about it in the future?

*is* off!

Offline kimmy

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #801 on: April 09, 2020, 12:20:09 am »
That right there was the point I made earlier about Trump and Johnson.  Yes, you can argue that they didn't jail doctors, but on the flip side, at least they had ample information to work with when they made their terrible decisions.  Which is worse?

They're all worse. We don't have to choose. All of them deserve to be pilloried over this. We don't have to choose just one.

We can all be justifiably mad that we are in this quagmire, but suing and holding governments 'accountable' seems a bit unrealistic.

Given that we're a tiny country in comparison to either the US or China, we don't have much clout to hold them accountable.  I think that the international community, acting as a group, could take measures to demand some changes from China.

Something along the lines of: we're not letting our citizens travel there, and we aren't letting your citizens travel here, until certain conditions are met regarding your handling of infections disease outbreak.

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline kimmy

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #802 on: April 09, 2020, 12:20:55 am »
*is* off!

Sorry, can you translate that from Waldoese to English?

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline waldo

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #803 on: April 09, 2020, 12:21:06 am »
So holding up your little graph and saying "look, the first guy didn't even go to the market!" isn't very convincing. It's kind of sad, really.

I'm still wondering why you're lawyering on behalf of these scumbags. Why are you standing up for such despicable people?

ya ya, you always struggle with actual studies... actual data. Not being able to show a correlation to the market for initial cases... where a third of the data sampling shows no exposure to the market - these are certainly inconvenient to your spun narrative - yes?  ;D

of course you keep nattering on with your "scumbag lawyering" strawman - of course you do!

Offline waldo

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #804 on: April 09, 2020, 12:23:27 am »
Sorry, can you translate that from Waldoese to English?

certainly; in response to your most idiotic and mind-numbing statement, "So is it your position that since we don't know for sure that the current pandemic resulted from animal trafficking, we don't need to worry about it in the future?"... I suggested you *is* off

Offline kimmy

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #805 on: April 09, 2020, 12:27:57 am »
ya ya, you always struggle with actual studies... actual data. Not being able to show a correlation to the market for initial cases... where a third of the data sampling shows no exposure to the market - these are certainly inconvenient to your spun narrative - yes?  ;D

of course you keep nattering on with your "scumbag lawyering" strawman - of course you do!

It's staggeringly incomplete data that mostly just serves to illustrate how much data is missing from those early weeks.  Perhaps they'd have had more data from that period if they hadn't threatened physicians for talking about an outbreak.


So why ARE you lawyering for scumbags?  Why so keen on trying to get animal traffickers off the hook?  "If the rhino horn don't fit, you must acquit!"

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline kimmy

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #806 on: April 09, 2020, 12:31:07 am »
you *is* off

I'm sorry, I think perhaps you should sign up for some sort of remedial grammar course or something. You're just not making any sense. Unless it's a stroke or something.  Can you smell toast right now?

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline waldo

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #807 on: April 09, 2020, 12:33:45 am »
It's staggeringly incomplete data that mostly just serves to illustrate how much data is missing from those early weeks.

 ;D ya ya, the mightySquirrel gave you the chops to outright dismiss that scientific study... how Trumpian of you!

Offline kimmy

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #808 on: April 09, 2020, 12:47:20 am »
;D ya ya, the mightySquirrel gave you the chops to outright dismiss that scientific study... how Trumpian of you!

It's not their study that's the problem, it's the inference you want to draw from it.

First, as I pointed out: you'd have to be an idiot to believe that they had one case, then nothing happened for 10 days, then 3 more cases, then nothing for 5 more days, then a whole raft of cases. They are obviously missing a lot of cases from that span.

Second, as I pointed out: the existence of asymptomatic carriers, and cases that don't require medical attention, guarantees that they can't know.

It's a lovely graph, and I'm sure they worked very hard trying to find all the cases they could. But it's a statistical certainty that they didn't find them all. So while that first little square may be blue, there's plenty of other squares that we don't know of and we don't know whether they're blue or pink. In short, it doesn't prove the point you think it does.


So for you to be holding up this graph and claiming it proves something that it doesn't just makes you look like a charlatan.   Posting a sciency-looking chart or graph and pretending it makes a point it doesn't actually make is one of your favorite tricks.


 -k
« Last Edit: April 09, 2020, 12:50:05 am by kimmy »
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Offline waldo

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #809 on: April 09, 2020, 12:55:43 am »
no - on December 31 of last year, China alerted the World Health Organization of an outbreak of a novel strain of coronavirus (initially called SARS-CoV-2) - one causing sever illness. As I understand, it took China from 'mid-December' to that Dec 31 alert point to ascertain just what they were dealing with... as I read, shortly after the WHO was alerted, Chinese scientists sequenced the genome of SARS-CoV-2 and made the data available to researchers worldwide. I understand the believed first occurrence in a human has been traced back to Dec 8th... with the number of confirmed cases on Dec 31 pegged at 266. But yes, how China handled public dissemination of the early circumstances and responses (or lack thereof), within China, can be (and has been) scrutinized; however, member kimmy, let's read your account of how China, the nation, should be held accountable for information provided(or not) to other countries and the responses those countries took (or didn't take) - notwithstandingc the respective preparedness of countries to any pandemic event.
- identify your implied missing China obligations to the international community, particularly in light of China's early notification to WHO and its sharing of the sequenced genome of SARS-CoV-2 with worldwide researchers


You sound like you're trying to become the new John McCallum.  With your praise for their Dec 31 call to the WHO alerting them to a novel SARS coronavirus, and their efforts in sequencing the virus genome, you make it sound like they're heroes in all this. I can only imagine that soon you'll be recommending Huawei phones.

If China did, as you say, contact the WHO on Dec 31,

fabrication and hyperbole - your standard fare! You categorize my factual statements as "praise for China"... how weak is your "argument" when you have to resort to such lame-assed plays. I identified the formal notification to WHO and the genome sequencing share - facts that you're clearly uncomfortable with. Your statement, "If China did, as I say, contact the WHO is gold, real gold!  ;D Again, how Trumpian of you!

for as much as you bluster and make shyte up, I will emphasize you chose to ignore my request of you; the one where I ask you to identify your implied missing China obligations to the international community . Of course, in response to me providing you 2 key example deliverables to the international community, you can't manage to answer my request. Instead you go allOutKimmy and beak-off about Huawei phones and calling me John McCallum - twice... on top of previously stating, repeatedly, I'm scumbag lawyering!

yes, clearly... you've lost it - mission accomplished says the waldo!  ;D