Author Topic: Covid Culture (was Outbreak Culture)  (Read 106144 times)

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Offline waldo

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #780 on: April 08, 2020, 01:29:00 am »
Trump first plied his magic elixir back in mid-March... and was soundly criticized by medical experts/media for the lack of substantive data/research/results to support the claim he was parroting. But now Trump is further emboldened to, once again, tout the "wonders" of Hydroxychloroquine and Chloroquine as COVID-19 treatment drugs!



of course Hydroxychloroquine and Chloroquine are long-standing legitimate drugs used for treatment of malaria and certain inflammatory conditions... since Trump's snake-oil show it has been increasingly difficult for persons with lupus, with rheumatoid arthritis, etc., to fill their prescriptions given the idiocy of Trump worshipers capturing the market of available Hydroxychloroquine and Chloroquine

imagine the Annals of Internal Medicine printing something to counter carnivalBarkerTrump!

Use of Hydroxychloroquine and Chloroquine During the COVID-19 Pandemic: What Every Clinician Should Know
Is there any doubt that he's invested in those companies and/or getting kickbacks?
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1246964229611180032/pu/vid/1280x720/YG_Cjtc2lxmvzMTQ.mp4
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #781 on: April 08, 2020, 11:30:33 am »
CovidiotGraham is also a free market capitalist....  until things get bad.  Then he’s a socialist.

Squidiot is also a...squidiot!

I'm a capitalist who supports a strong social safety net.  That's what Canada is and has been for a long time.  Try again squidiot.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #782 on: April 08, 2020, 11:32:37 am »
how did ole Spectre miss this assault on democracy? Oh wait... by a Conservative government... nothing to see here hey Spec - carry on!  ;D

It came into effect on April 2 and does not contain any sunset clauses or provisions, meaning that this power remains in the hands of the government as long as a public health emergency is declared.

As you know, I fully approve of no sunset clauses!  My secret plan for conservative governments to claim tyrannical power and take over the world is working!
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline kimmy

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #783 on: April 08, 2020, 09:32:30 pm »
to separate... in your zeal to target China and in your clear parroting of Trumpist rhetoric so feverishly hellbent to deflect from the utter incompetence of Trump are you able to separate fact from wanton gibberish?

Is that what this is about? You're worried that if people point out China's negligence in allowing this to spread, they'll forget about Trump's incompetence?  No need to worry. There's plenty of blame to go around.  Certainly, continue pointing out what a colossal idiot Trump is, but don't forget to look at where this all started.

Before bothering to give credence to your question, perhaps you could:
- identify said failure in actioning containment and provide metrics to support that failure, internally and beyond Chinese borders
- identify your implied missing China obligations to the international community, particularly in light of China's early notification to WHO and its sharing of the sequenced genome of SARS-CoV-2 with worldwide researchers

You sound like you're trying to become the new John McCallum.  With your praise for their Dec 31 call to the WHO alerting them to a novel SARS coronavirus, and their efforts in sequencing the virus genome, you make it sound like they're heroes in all this. I can only imagine that soon you'll be recommending Huawei phones.

But here's the rub...

But yes, how China handled public dissemination of the early circumstances and responses (or lack thereof), within China, can be (and has been) scrutinized;


That's putting it rather mildly.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-51364382

Dr Li, now dead from COVID-19, was attempting to share his findings with other doctors, only to be threatened and silenced by Chinese security authorities. If China did, as you say, contact the WHO on Dec 31, their efforts to silence Dr Li (and others) and to cover up the coronavirus outbreak in Wuhan continued WELL AFTER they already knew they had a SARS outbreak underway.  That's clearly negligent, and while you might suggest that's an internal issue for China, that just isn't so. They have no way of knowing how many international travelers came and left from Wuhan during the time they were attempting to Baghdad Bob the SARS outbreak that they-- according to information you've provided-- already knew was underway.

And no, I don't want a Huawei, Mr McCallum.

-k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline kimmy

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #784 on: April 08, 2020, 11:09:32 pm »
so very definitive; hence the waldo's citation request... surely... member kimmy won't vacillate on her certainty - factual certainty, no less! Let's see now:

from your own linked article: "Prof Andrew Cunningham of Zoological Society of London (ZSL) said it was important not to jump to conclusions from the paper. "The source of the detected coronavirus really is unknown - it might have been a natural pangolin virus or have jumped from another species between capture and death.""

at this point your linked article's paper reference is one that has not yet been published - to allow it to enter into the peer-response cycle; a pre-release unedited manuscript has been offered by the Journal Nature. That being said, the paper/lead author state: "This outbreak has been tentatively associated with a seafood market in Wuhan, China, where the sale of wild animals may be the source of zoonotic infection2. Although bats are likely reservoir hosts for SARS-CoV-2, the identity of any intermediate host that might have facilitated transfer to humans is unknown."

member kimmy, so... definitive to support your, uhhh... factual certainty!  ;D


If I acknowledge that it is not yet an established fact that the COVID-19 animal-to-human transfer resulted from China's animal trafficking trade, will you acknowledge that it's by far the most likely probability?

The experts have been looking closely at the Wuhan live animal market, and for good reason.  Animal trafficking creates ideal conditions for animal to human transfer. It's how the 2003 SARS outbreak originated (trafficked civets-- that WAS conclusively proven), and if it didn't cause the current outbreak, it'll cause a different outbreak in the future.  Animal trafficking is a clear and ongoing threat to human health.  It took 4 years to conclusively prove that the 2003 SARS epidemic was linked to animal trafficking. It's unreasonable to suggest that we shouldn't worry about animal trafficking until such time as we know for certain that it's linked to COVID-19.

People are not wrong in pointing out that there could be some other explanation.  It's not impossible that some chance encounter with a wild animal was where humans first contacted the virus... it's just extremely improbable.   Maybe some hapless farmer was minding his own business and he just got jumped by some pangolins. Maybe it was the Teenage Mutant Ninja Pangolins.  Who knows. We can't conclusively say that didn't happen.  But given the odds of that vs the odds that one of the tens of thousands of trafficked pangolins spread the virus to thousands of other trafficked pangolins, which then spread the virus to some of the thousands of humans who they came into proximity with, either at the market or during the trafficking process... you'd have to be an idiot to put your money on the wildlife scenario.


I'm also confused as to why you're lawyering on behalf of animal trafficking and the "traditional Chinese medicine" trade that is the major driver of animal trafficking in China.   They're scum. They're vermin.   They don't need lawyering, they need a good hard kick in the nuts.

TCM practitioners and associated animal trafficking are guilty of:
 -peddling quack medicine
 -driving some animals to the brink of extinction
 -disgusting acts of sadism and cruelty
 -unleashing SARS, 2003 version
 -most likely unleashing SARS the 2020 version
And they'll most certainly unleash some future plague, unless they're stomped out.

Why would you want to take up for people like that?


 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline eyeball

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #785 on: April 08, 2020, 11:11:56 pm »
My secret plan for conservative governments to claim tyrannical power and take over the world is working!
How is that possible when it's my secret plan that's working?

And don't ask what that is because its a secret.
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #786 on: April 08, 2020, 11:13:28 pm »
Is that what this is about? You're worried that if people point out China's negligence in allowing this to spread, they'll forget about Trump's incompetence?  No need to worry. There's plenty of blame to go around.  Certainly, continue pointing out what a colossal idiot Trump is, but don't forget to look at where this all started.

I don't think it's about forgetting Trump's incompetence.  It's that if we deem China negligent, we have to deem Trump negligent too for saying a mere few weeks ago that it's all a hoax while people were dying all over the world.  And what about Boris Johnson, should he be held accountable for British deaths for promoting the herd immunity theory at first?  And if those two are negligent, what's to stop me from saying Bonnie Henry's decisions were too slow,  she should've declared emergency and shut the borders right away?

Pandemics happen and they've started in all corners of the world.  Spanish flu likely started in Kansas from a pig farm.  Societies that eat and live close to animals will always have zoonotic diseases.
 
I certainly wish China had believed the doctors and acted differently, but I think the same about Trump and Boris Johnson as well. 

Sure, Trump and Johnson didn't lock up doctors, but the argument can be made that they made their choices when there was ample evidence of a novel coronavirus whereas China at least had the benefit of doubt.

Ultimately, I don't think suing any of the covidiot government accomplishes anything.
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #787 on: April 08, 2020, 11:20:35 pm »
Seems to be happening. Hope so.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-ontario-quebec-covid-19-1.5524056

That's good news, I suppose, but does it matter?  Life isn't returning to normal for the foreseeable future.  Regardless of what that graph looks like, we aren't any closer to getting back to our lives. From what I've read, all the models say that as soon as social distancing relaxes, there are rebound outbreaks that put us right back at square one.   

Do we ever get our lives back? 

Maybe in fall 2020?  Maybe spring 2021?  Maybe someday, if they find a vaccine or effective treatment?  Maybe never?

I'm completely sick of this dystopian future we're stuck in and it hasn't even been a month yet.  That there's no foreseeable end to this makes me sick to my core.


 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #788 on: April 08, 2020, 11:25:23 pm »
That's good news, I suppose, but does it matter?  Life isn't returning to normal for the foreseeable future.  Regardless of what that graph looks like, we aren't any closer to getting back to our lives. From what I've read, all the models say that as soon as social distancing relaxes, there are rebound outbreaks that put us right back at square one.   

Do we ever get our lives back? 

Maybe in fall 2020?  Maybe spring 2021?  Maybe someday, if they find a vaccine or effective treatment?  Maybe never?

I'm completely sick of this dystopian future we're stuck in and it hasn't even been a month yet.  That there's no foreseeable end to this makes me sick to my core.

I think we're **** until we all get vaccinated.  Better plan some home projects.

To keep things positive, things could be much, much, much worse than being stuck at home watching TV.  My grandparents had to deal with the Great Depression and then WWII.  I prefer this to storming Juno beach.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #789 on: April 08, 2020, 11:39:19 pm »
I think we're **** until we all get vaccinated.  Better plan some home projects.

To keep things positive, things could be much, much, much worse than being stuck at home watching TV.  My grandparents had to deal with the Great Depression and then WWII.  I prefer this to storming Juno beach.

Early in the lockdown I read somewhere about how we complain compared to what Anne Frank and her family had to endure and every time I want to beg COVID to put me out of my misery already (which is several times a day), I try and gain some perspective.

Forget comparing yourself to 80 years ago, even 15 years ago we couldn't do a lot of what we're doing now with telecommuting and facetime. 

Tomorrow I'm going to a virtual happy hour.  Talk about glamping.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #790 on: April 08, 2020, 11:42:32 pm »
Early in the lockdown I read somewhere about how we complain compared to what Anne Frank and her family had to endure and every time I want to beg COVID to put me out of my misery already (which is several times a day), I try and gain some perspective.

Forget comparing yourself to 80 years ago, even 15 years ago we couldn't do a lot of what we're doing now with telecommuting and facetime. 

Tomorrow I'm going to a virtual happy hour.  Talk about glamping.

It's pretty cool that we can have a virtual group facetime with anybody in the world at any time for basically free.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline waldo

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #791 on: April 08, 2020, 11:43:17 pm »
and most certainly, there is no scientific based consensus that the virus originated at a Wuhan so-called 'wet market'; in particular, study analysis shows that some of the first known patients had no direct exposure to the/a wet market. Most pointedly, study analysis shows that about a third of the first 41 confirmed infected patients had no direct exposure to the/a wet market... among them the first known patients where, in addition, "no epidemiological link was found between the first patient and later cases":

If I acknowledge that it is not yet an established fact that the COVID-19 animal-to-human transfer resulted from China's animal trafficking trade, will you acknowledge that it's by far the most likely probability?

The experts have been looking closely at the Wuhan live animal market, and for good reason.

you claimed a factual certainty... and your own linked article cautioned against your zeal: "Prof Andrew Cunningham of Zoological Society of London (ZSL) said it was important not to jump to conclusions from the paper. "The source of the detected coronavirus really is unknown - it might have been a natural pangolin virus or have jumped from another species between capture and death.""

you're not the grandMysteryHuntingMaven you aspire to; you have a most circumspect history of preferring "alternative facts", particularly those that you find a way to craft to your self-serving agenda. You speak of "experts looking closely at the Wuhan live animal market"... for good reason you say. But somehow, you manage to ignore the study I referenced and the data/graphic that; again:
Quote
shows that some of the first known patients had no direct exposure to the/a wet market. Most pointedly, study analysis shows that about a third of the first 41 confirmed infected patients had no direct exposure to the/a wet market... among them the first known patients where, in addition, "no epidemiological link was found between the first patient and later cases":

as for your questioned likelihood, as I read/infer, it's likely an intermediary animal brought the virus into the market... and without any known historical direct linkages between bats and humans, it's just as likely that the intermediary animal might be a domestic animal bitten by a bat... a domestic animal brought into the market for sale.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #792 on: April 08, 2020, 11:44:23 pm »
It's that if we deem China negligent, we have to deem Trump negligent too for saying a mere few weeks ago that it's all a hoax

Certainly.  Would anybody here disagree that it was dangerous and reckless for Trump (and others) to be spreading misinformation?

I've heard that Washington state is suing Fox News for spreading misinformation.  While we probably can't haul China into a courtroom, I think some contrition (and compensation) for their behavior should be part of the discussion for renewing international relationships with them.

what's to stop me from saying Bonnie Henry's decisions were too slow,  she should've declared emergency and shut the borders right away?

I'm skeptical that Bonnie Henry has the power to close the borders. That decision had to be made in Ottawa-- and whether our government did so soon enough was hotly debated at the time (and will no doubt be second-guessed in hindsight).   But questioning whether they made the best decision with the information they had is a lot different from deliberately spreading misinformation, or suppressing information.


 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline waldo

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #793 on: April 08, 2020, 11:47:13 pm »
COVID-19 101: (Eugenia Corrales Aguilar - Humboldt-Universität zu Berlin )



Offline Omni

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Re: Outbreak Culture
« Reply #794 on: April 08, 2020, 11:50:52 pm »
I think we're **** until we all get vaccinated.  Better plan some home projects.

To keep things positive, things could be much, much, much worse than being stuck at home watching TV.  My grandparents had to deal with the Great Depression and then WWII.  I prefer this to storming Juno beach.

My latest home project resulted in lovely smelling steam wafting from the slits in the top crust of a really thickly piled apple pie. A dollop of vanilla ice cream and a pot of coffee. Mowing the grass will simply have to wait 'till tomorrow.
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