Author Topic: Our selective support for oppressed women  (Read 544 times)

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Offline Omni

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Re: Our selective support for oppressed women
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2018, 03:03:52 pm »
I don't like the gratuitous anti-Semitism which is now a part of progressive mainstream politics.

While others don't like the gratuitous Islamophobia that is now a part of others anti-progressive politics.

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Re: Our selective support for oppressed women
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2018, 03:09:48 pm »
I don't like the gratuitous anti-Semitism which is now a part of progressive mainstream politics.

I see.  So your claim that you only insult other posters if they insult you first isn't true; you will also insult those who post articles or express opinions with which you disagree.  Ok, good to know.
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guest4

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Re: Our selective support for oppressed women
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2018, 03:12:11 pm »
Ahh, did I throw some of that 'MSM' light on your Al Jazeera propaganda piece? So sad!

More like your gratuitous insults made your contribution pointless and irrelevant. 

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Re: Our selective support for oppressed women
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2018, 03:27:18 pm »
I will support the most obvious answer: their causes are different.  Malala is a champion of the right of girls to have access to have education.  It's universally popular.  Everyone supports that, except for the Taliban and Boko Haram and certain members of the alt-right perhaps.

Ahed is a champion of the end of Israeli occupation of the West Bank.  That's a cause that people feel a lot more ambivalent about.

Fair enough, but even so - should we give a pass to police or soldiers for attacking and killing kids at any time?   I understand nobody likes rocks thrown at them, or being called names but in Canada and the States we don't generally shoot at kids or even adults who do so.  If such is wrong for the Taliban, why isn't it wrong for Israeli soldiers?


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As for Ahed...  why Ahed, and not some other Palestinian girl?   I bet that everybody who opens your article will be immediately struck by the same thing: she's blonde, blue-eyed, light-skinned. 

I did not even notice that, but I see your point.


guest4

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Re: Our selective support for oppressed women
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2018, 03:32:37 pm »
Only if you are naive enough to believe the article presents all of the relevant facts. Columnists want to create narratives and tend to ignore those facts which undermine the narrative (no matter what side of political spectrum they are on). There are simply too many open questions (i.e. why were soldiers using tear gas in the first place if there was no threat?) to take the article at face value. Especially given the backdrop where we have an audience of people who are convinced that the Palestinians bear no responsibility for the quagmire that exists and reject any suggestion that Israeli soldiers might be acting appropriately given the facts on the ground.

Good points, but could equally be said about any article painting Palestinians in a bad light.   Somewhere in the middle of the opposing media stories is the truth, no doubt, but still leaves the hypocrisy - in my mind at least - of condemning only those acts of war or violence against children when the aggressor is someone we approve of.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Our selective support for oppressed women
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2018, 03:41:47 pm »
While others don't like the gratuitous Islamophobia that is now a part of others anti-progressive politics.

Define gratuitous.
The reasons to not want the spread of Islam are numerous, and based on legitimate concerns about how the doctrine affects their behaviour, culture, values and attitude and treatement of others through repeated demonstrations of that behaviour all around the world.

Anti-semitism is just because you don't like Jews.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Our selective support for oppressed women
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2018, 03:49:13 pm »
More like your gratuitous insults made your contribution pointless and irrelevant.

'hand-wringing progressives' is hardly a phrase to make people cry, and saying you and others would be squealing like pigs if Israelis bombed people isn't an insult at all, it's a prediction based on past behaviour.

The reason Israel gets singled out for all this **** is because of anti-semitism, pure and simple. The Arab countries, including Egypt, do worse all the time. We don't hear progressives coming on here to whine about it. Instead you make excuses and try to pretend life over in Egypt is peachy kean for women, Christians and everyone else.
Yet some Palestinian teenager assaults IDF soldiers, neither of whom hit her back, and she gets arrested and suddenly you're waving this aloft as an indication of the West's hypocrisy in not condemning those damned Jews. PHht. Hey, do you think she wishes she was arrested by Egypt instead?

Members of the security forces, particularly the Interior Ministry’s National Security Agency, continued to routinely torture detainees and forcibly disappeared hundreds of people with little or no accountability for violations of the law. The disappearance, torture, and death of Italian doctoral researcher Giulio Regeni, probably at the hands of security services, highlighted these abuses and caused a diplomatic rift between Egypt and Italy.

Officers of the National Security Agency routinely tortured and forcibly disappeared suspects with few consequences. Many of the detainees who suffered these abuses were accused of sympathy with or membership in the Muslim Brotherhood, which the government named a terrorist group in 2013 but has remained the country’s largest opposition movement.


https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2017/country-chapters/egypt


« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 12:56:58 pm by JMT »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline TimG

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Re: Our selective support for oppressed women
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2018, 03:58:29 pm »
Good points, but could equally be said about any article painting Palestinians in a bad light.
Yes. It is a quagmire with lots of bad behavior on both sides.

Somewhere in the middle of the opposing media stories is the truth, no doubt, but still leaves the hypocrisy
There is no hypocrisy. Only pragmatism. Advocating for girls to attend school is in a completely different category because there is no reasonable person that can claim that she was wrong or unreasonable. Turning her into a paragon is not likely to backfire. With this Palestinian girl it is quite possible that she is not the white knight she claims to be and may actually deserve to be in jail which would make propping her up as a paragon a risky affair.   
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 04:00:07 pm by TimG »

Offline Omni

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Re: Our selective support for oppressed women
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2018, 04:01:52 pm »
Define gratuitous.
The reasons to not want the spread of Islam are numerous, and based on legitimate concerns about how the doctrine affects their behaviour, culture, values and attitude and treatement of others through repeated demonstrations of that behaviour all around the world.

Anti-semitism is just because you don't like Jews.

I don't really have a problem with Jews, especially since my father was one. What I don't like is the "one size fits all" narrow minded approach of people who simply just don't like Muslim's. 

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Re: Our selective support for oppressed women
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2018, 04:13:40 pm »
Yes. It is a quagmire with lots of bad behavior on both sides.
I agree with this, which is why I tend to avoid the Israeli/Palestine discussions.  Although I am of the opinion Israel could do more to promote peace, I don't feel strongly enough to argue it.  Its a miserable situation altogether.  :(

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There is no hypocrisy. Only pragmatism. Advocating for girls to attend school is in a completely different category because there is no reasonable person that can claim that she was wrong or unreasonable. Turning her into a paragon is not likely to backfire. With this Palestinian girl it is quite possible that she is not the white knight she claims to be and may actually deserve to be in jail which would make propping her up as a paragon a risky affair.
Nice analysis, but does not remove the hypocrisy of condemning war on children only when we don't like the aggressors.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Our selective support for oppressed women
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2018, 06:20:08 pm »
I don't really have a problem with Jews, especially since my father was one. What I don't like is the "one size fits all" narrow minded approach of people who simply just don't like Muslim's.

I don't like people or groups, including countries,  who don't behave in what I regard as a civilized manner.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 06:21:52 pm by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: Our selective support for oppressed women
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2018, 12:27:09 am »
I don't like people or groups, including countries,  who don't behave in what I regard as a civilized manner.
Yet again, more generalizations. You should try a bit of travel.It can be enlightening.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Our selective support for oppressed women
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2018, 01:04:12 am »
Fair enough, but even so - should we give a pass to police or soldiers for attacking and killing kids at any time?   I understand nobody likes rocks thrown at them, or being called names but in Canada and the States we don't generally shoot at kids or even adults who do so.  If such is wrong for the Taliban, why isn't it wrong for Israeli soldiers?

Ok, but now you're asking a different question from what you started the thread with.

Ahed is a Palestinian agitator, and that's a cause that many people don't agree with even if, in this case, the agitator is a photogenic 16 year old girl instead of an angry dude with a beard.



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guest4

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Re: Our selective support for oppressed women
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2018, 09:47:12 am »
Ok, but now you're asking a different question from what you started the thread with.

Ahed is a Palestinian agitator, and that's a cause that many people don't agree with even if, in this case, the agitator is a photogenic 16 year old girl instead of an angry dude with a beard.

 -k

I think its a question related to the original and anyway, that is what can happen during discussion, different but related ideas and questions occur.   

Offline Rue

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Re: Our selective support for oppressed women
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2018, 05:44:20 pm »
To start with all this tape shows is that this girl assaulted IDF soldiers and they showed commendable restraint:
http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/05/middleeast/ahed-tamimi-palestinian-activist/index.html.

Slapping, kicking, punching soldiers to try get them to loose their temper to create a brutality photo op for the PA was an epic fail.

This girl has been used as a photo and video prop by the PA since she was a little girl precisely because she is blonde and blue eyed and catches the camera's eye because of her physicality.

Here family have been using her as a prop since she was a very young child:

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-the-reality-behind-the-tamimi-family-s-resistance-1.5630465

http://www.thetower.org/5815-advocates-for-terror-why-ahed-tamimi-and-her-family-are-no-heroes/

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/02/ahed-tamimi-israel-occupation-palestinian-trauma


To answer Dia's question directly-some of us feel this girl is a prop- a young child who was taken at a very young age by her own parents to be used as
a political prop-a girl ironically who summarizes everything  wrong with the Palestinian liberation movement-its choice to use its children to engage
in violence and pose that as a legitimate expression of heroic political discourse.

If that was my daughter and I have two, I would never have allowed her to be used this way  in support of anyone.

Its a tragedy to see her parents exploiting her and using her as they do.

This is not a way to achieve peace or respect. This is a method to incite hatred and violence.

Its not working. Look back at the tape. It spits in the face of an attempt to suggest the IDF for no reason beat people and are evil.

This girl if anything needs to be liberated from her parents hatred and crass exploitation not Israelis.

Her parents are her worst abusers. To turn her into a hero is bullshit. She is a child abuse victim.

They may as well out her in a **** film. Ethically there is no difference. None.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 05:57:23 pm by Rue »
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