Author Topic: Is Israel of Strategic Value to the U.S., Canada and the West?  (Read 709 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline JBG

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 182
  • Left-Wing Democrat (similar to NDP)
  • Location: New York area
Wait, before I answer that, did you really say we agree?!?  Because I'm pretty much saying Israel is trying to keep millions of people stateless and without human rights, just because it doesn't want to annex them and give them citizenship, and the only way to do this is to provoke and entice a perpetual state of war by doing extremely cruel things like demolishing schools and taking basic necessities from them.

You agree???
Doing that would be suicide, literally. They'd kill us if they took majority control. Think the Hebron Massacre.
In your 'support' of Israel, do you think Israel has any intention of ever giving up the West Bank to Jordan (even if Jordan wanted it)?

And if this perfect scenario does not come to fruition, are you ok with Israel demolishing Palestinian homes, schools,, livelihood and basic necessities and building Jewish settlements on them?
We probably would but Jordan in I think 1988 rejected that possibility. Even during Jordan's 1948-67 occupation it did nothing for the locals there.
Trump - Watch what he does, not how he says it.

====================
 If it's us or them, I choose us

Offline SirJohn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5801
In your 'support' of Israel, do you think Israel has any intention of ever giving up the West Bank to Jordan (even if Jordan wanted it)?

I think they would. It would solve a lot of their problems. I don't think Jordan would want it, though. They'd have to be offered a very hefty bribe, and probably security assurances and assistance. The Palestinians tried to take over their country once before after all.

And yes, I'm aware they are technically ALL Palestinians.

Quote
And if this perfect scenario does not come to fruition, are you ok with Israel demolishing Palestinian homes, schools,, livelihood and basic necessities and building Jewish settlements on them?

I'm opposed to building Jewish settlements in the West Bank. And I'm opposed to any and all injustices. I don't think those homes and energy infrastructure should have been demolished. It sounds like some officious local doing it without the consent of the law.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 11:37:31 am by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline cybercoma

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2955
Do you think Israel would even agree on the borders of West Bank and Gaza to give them up? That's the problem now and that would still be the problem with that "solution."

Offline SirJohn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5801
Do you think Israel would even agree on the borders of West Bank and Gaza to give them up? That's the problem now and that would still be the problem with that "solution."

If they weren't idiots, they would. The problem with the Israelis is their proportional election system. They have too many parties, and neither of the big ones is ever able to get a majority alone. That means cutting deals with all the tiny ones, even if they only have a few MPs, and most of the tiny ones are rabid religionists who want a greater Israel. The irony, of course, is most of those they represent do not serve in the IDF, don't work, and don't pay taxes.

But as long as the Palestinians have things like "the right of return" as non-negotiable they'll never agree to something like this anyway.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline JBG

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 182
  • Left-Wing Democrat (similar to NDP)
  • Location: New York area
Do you think Israel would even agree on the borders of West Bank and Gaza to give them up? That's the problem now and that would still be the problem with that "solution."
If they weren't idiots, they would. The problem with the Israelis is their proportional election system. They have too many parties, and neither of the big ones is ever able to get a majority alone. That means cutting deals with all the tiny ones, even if they only have a few MPs, and most of the tiny ones are rabid religionists who want a greater Israel. The irony, of course, is most of those they represent do not serve in the IDF, don't work, and don't pay taxes.

But as long as the Palestinians have things like "the right of return" as non-negotiable they'll never agree to something like this anyway.
Arafat received almost all his territorial demands at the 2000 Camp David talks and then blew up the deal with adding in the "right of return" at the last moment, as Clinton's presidency was ending. I think that the Palestinian side has shown no real interest in peace. None of the negotiations are over access to water, to ports or anything that indicates that they plan on building a nation. Their plan is apparently to build a springboard from which to seek to annihilate Israel as a Jewish state, and perhaps the Jewish population.
Trump - Watch what he does, not how he says it.

====================
 If it's us or them, I choose us

Offline Queefer Sutherland

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8131
I think we have to turn a blind eye towards some imperfections. In much of the world being perfect equals being dead.

If you want our continued significant financial and military support you should at act within basic international law and human rights.  As long as Israel keeps building settlements, Canada should absolve all support to Israel.  They can **** off.
I queef, therefore I am.

Offline JBG

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 182
  • Left-Wing Democrat (similar to NDP)
  • Location: New York area
If you want our continued significant financial and military support you should at act within basic international law and human rights.  As long as Israel keeps building settlements, Canada should absolve all support to Israel.  They can **** off.
Even if not building settlements is suicide?
Trump - Watch what he does, not how he says it.

====================
 If it's us or them, I choose us

Offline JMT

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3462
  • Location: Waterhen, Manitoba
Even if not building settlements is suicide?

What?  In what way?

Offline Queefer Sutherland

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8131
Even if not building settlements is suicide?

LOL uhhm how so?  They're mainly building them in the West Bank, where they don't even have any legal claim to.
I queef, therefore I am.

Offline JBG

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 182
  • Left-Wing Democrat (similar to NDP)
  • Location: New York area
LOL uhhm how so?  They're mainly building them in the West Bank, where they don't even have any legal claim to.
The "West Bank" was created from armistice lines in 1949. The other side never recognized that as a border and never signed off on a treaty. So the Arabs' claim to that land is highly dubious. If the various Arab parties vying for control in the West Bank got together and gave Israel recognition, peace and assurance that they would keep attacks under control Israel would gladly cede control and would probably uproot settlements. In 2005 in Gaza Ariel Sharon uprooted all settlements in Gaza and evacuated all of the Jewish population. It didn't end well as we now all know. That's why stopping settlements is currently suicidal or worse.
Trump - Watch what he does, not how he says it.

====================
 If it's us or them, I choose us

Offline SirJohn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5801
The "West Bank" was created from armistice lines in 1949. The other side never recognized that as a border and never signed off on a treaty. So the Arabs' claim to that land is highly dubious. If the various Arab parties vying for control in the West Bank got together and gave Israel recognition, peace and assurance that they would keep attacks under control Israel would gladly cede control and would probably uproot settlements. In 2005 in Gaza Ariel Sharon uprooted all settlements in Gaza and evacuated all of the Jewish population. It didn't end well as we now all know. That's why stopping settlements is currently suicidal or worse.

Either the West Bank is Israeli territory, in which case Israel is, as people have accused it of being, an apartheid state which does not allow the same freedoms to its residents as it does to Jews, or it's an occupied foreign territory that Israel will wind up giving back. In which case its residents have no Israeli citizenship claim. You can't have it both ways. If it's Israeli territory than the Palestinians there have the right to vote in Israeli elections and have political representatives in parliament. Does Israel want to add almost four million more Muslims to its voter rolls? I don't think so.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum
Agree Agree x 1 View List

Offline JBG

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 182
  • Left-Wing Democrat (similar to NDP)
  • Location: New York area
Either the West Bank is Israeli territory, in which case Israel is, as people have accused it of being, an apartheid state which does not allow the same freedoms to its residents as it does to Jews, or it's an occupied foreign territory that Israel will wind up giving back. In which case its residents have no Israeli citizenship claim. You can't have it both ways. If it's Israeli territory than the Palestinians there have the right to vote in Israeli elections and have political representatives in parliament. Does Israel want to add almost four million more Muslims to its voter rolls? I don't think so.
What about the Gaza experience?
Trump - Watch what he does, not how he says it.

====================
 If it's us or them, I choose us

Offline SirJohn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5801
What about the Gaza experience?

What about it? Are you arguing that if Israel leaves the West Bank it will become a shithole run by religious fanatics and  terrorists? I agree. But that's irrelevant to the points I made.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline JBG

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 182
  • Left-Wing Democrat (similar to NDP)
  • Location: New York area
What about it? Are you arguing that if Israel leaves the West Bank it will become a shithole run by religious fanatics and  terrorists? I agree. But that's irrelevant to the points I made.
That's why, while well-intentioned it would be suicidal.
Trump - Watch what he does, not how he says it.

====================
 If it's us or them, I choose us

Offline Queefer Sutherland

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8131
Either the West Bank is Israeli territory, in which case Israel is, as people have accused it of being, an apartheid state which does not allow the same freedoms to its residents as it does to Jews, or it's an occupied foreign territory that Israel will wind up giving back.

You think Israel will give it back?  Not in a million years.

The current gov of Netanyahu will never give it back, doesn't believe in a 2-state solution, and believes the entirety all belongs to Israel based on 2000 year old land claims.

Some will argue the settlement building is done for negotiation leverage.  The settlement building is done in order to annex and claim the land.  If the Israeli army were to roll in to the WB and kick the out the remaining Palestinians, who would stop them?
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 05:16:15 pm by Moonlight Graham »
I queef, therefore I am.