Author Topic: Is Israel of Strategic Value to the U.S., Canada and the West?  (Read 294 times)

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Offline JBG

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Is Israel of Strategic Value to the U.S., Canada and the West?
« on: September 08, 2017, 12:24:46 pm »
Many people have stated that our alliance with Israel is based upon the fact that they are Western and to some extent that they are "white." Putting aside the fact that many Israelis are of Middle Eastern origin and some are black, i.e. the Falashas of Ethiopian descent, Israel is a major, probably indispensable Western asset.

Israel is vital to U.S., Canadian and overall Western interests in ways that may not be totally obvious. If you are familiar with WW II history, Hitler controlled Europe to the Atlantic Ocean. Spain and Portugal were "neutral in favor of the Axis." Italy was separated from most of Europe by the Alps, and in any event was not conquered until sometime in late 1943 or early 1944.

The only usable avenues of attack to regain Europe was on the beaches of France; Normandy and/or Calais. The battle to make a beachhead was a bloodbath. Israel is a giant "Normandy" in the Middle East, a fraught and unstable area. Should the West need to enter the Middle East militarily, Israel is the only country that, as a stable democracy, that can be counted on as a springboard. That is why some Arab countries and groups want Israel out so desperately. Knocking off Israel knocks the West out of a large chunk of the world.

During the Obama years, his approach was that there is really only one world and that no country's military should dominate. A beautiful dream and a recipe for chaos. I feel that most Presidents and especially their Defense Departments understood the essential role Israel played. The State Department, in general, has considered Israel to be an obstacle to peace. Over the years, during the Truman, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Reagan, Bush I and II, Clinton and Trump years (Ford and Carter were decidedly of two minds, as was Obama, and Eisenhower was  hostile to Israel) the U.S. has been pro-Israel or neutral in favor of Israel.

I consider that we should be allied to Israel both as based on ideological similarities, i.e. it's a democracy, and for strategic purposes.
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Offline waldo

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as a relationship measure, is settlement expansion a strategic asset... or liability?

Offline BC_cheque

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as a relationship measure, is settlement expansion a strategic asset... or liability?

And this is exactly the biggest paradox for westerners who claim to 'support Israel' yet believe the settlements and home demolishing is wrong.  You can't 'support Israel' and be against the crimes against humanity the country is committing.

What exactly are people who are 'against Israel' protesting? 

I have a lot more respect for the people who just come out and say the land should belong to Israel but then they'd have to make the Arab population citizens and tear down the walls so it'll never happen.  The status-quo will continue with keeping millions of people without a land and as prisoners.

'Supporting Israel' is nothing but a feel-good statement.  Digging deeper it has virtually no meaning.

Offline JBG

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And this is exactly the biggest paradox for westerners who claim to 'support Israel' yet believe the settlements and home demolishing is wrong.  You can't 'support Israel' and be against the crimes against humanity the country is committing.

What exactly are people who are 'against Israel' protesting? 

I have a lot more respect for the people who just come out and say the land should belong to Israel but then they'd have to make the Arab population citizens and tear down the walls so it'll never happen.  The status-quo will continue with keeping millions of people without a land and as prisoners.

'Supporting Israel' is nothing but a feel-good statement.  Digging deeper it has virtually no meaning.
Which side are you on?
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Offline JMT

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And this is exactly the biggest paradox for westerners who claim to 'support Israel' yet believe the settlements and home demolishing is wrong.  You can't 'support Israel' and be against the crimes against humanity the country is committing.

What exactly are people who are 'against Israel' protesting? 

I have a lot more respect for the people who just come out and say the land should belong to Israel but then they'd have to make the Arab population citizens and tear down the walls so it'll never happen.  The status-quo will continue with keeping millions of people without a land and as prisoners.

'Supporting Israel' is nothing but a feel-good statement.  Digging deeper it has virtually no meaning.

At this point, I'm in complete agreement with you.  I used to feel differently, but, I can't anymore. 
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Offline BC_cheque

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At this point, I'm in complete agreement with you.  I used to feel differently, but, I can't anymore.

For the record, you and I have had this discussion but I wasn't indirectly addressing you.  I say the exact thing to friends IRL who say they 'support Israel'. 

It's nice to see you've come around.  I think Netanyahu is making it easier.  Before, Israel would at least put up a lot of lip service about wanting a two-state solution but with this government it's pretty impossible to deny the modus operandi. 

Then taking out donated solar plants and demolishing Palestinian schools, it's like they just WANT the Palestinians to keep fighting so that they have a reason to continue victimhood/land-grabbing.

Very unfortunate.


Offline BC_cheque

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Which side are you on?

I used to think both sides make their own bed, but with Netanyahu at the helm I'm leaning more and more pro-Palestinian.

The man is ruthless.

Offline SirJohn

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I used to think both sides make their own bed, but with Netanyahu at the helm I'm leaning more and more pro-Palestinian.

The man is ruthless.

Both sides are ruthless and always have been. It's a different world over there, without a lot of the niceties we take for granted.

Hamas is still dedicated to the destruction of Israel, and still praises every terrorist attack on innocent civilians. If there was an election in the West Bank it would likely win. Any fair and free election in a new  Palestinian nation would likely return a government which is violently opposed to Israel and would institute Sharia law. And since there are no resources and no obvious source of income in the existing Palestinian territories the place would almost immediately become a cesspit of poverty and religious violence and fanaticism. Also, it would be free to set up an army and air force, which would be heavily funded by Iran, Syria, etc..

Would you want that next door to YOU?
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Offline BC_cheque

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If I were a peace-loving nation who minded my own business, no I certainly would not want that living next to me.  But if I were a de facto theocracy wherein a large chunk of my electorate were religious zealots who believed a disputed part of land is promised to me by god, then yes, I think Hamas would be exactly the kind of enemy I'd want.

Israel has a very big Palestinian problem.  It can't very well kill all the Arabs who live in the WB but it can't annex the land without committing demographic suicide.  A 2 state solution would anger the religious and right-wingers who believe the land should stay with Israel, so there is no way out but to continue the status quo.

Is there really any reason to demolish solar plants donated by Europeans?  Or schools a week before classes are about to start?  Serious questions.

They need Hamas.  They need that enemy so they can continue flattening Palestnian homes and building Jewish settlements on them.

You and everyone else who 'supports' such a theocracy should really questions these actions. 

Stealing land has nothing to do with Hamas.

Offline the_squid

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I think they create more terrorists now than they prevent because of their crusade to expand their country into where it doesn't belong.

No, they are no longer a valuable ally.   But maybe they will be again one day. 

Offline SirJohn

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If I were a peace-loving nation who minded my own business, no I certainly would not want that living next to me.  But if I were a de facto theocracy wherein a large chunk of my electorate were religious zealots who believed a disputed part of land is promised to me by god, then yes, I think Hamas would be exactly the kind of enemy I'd want.

What makes you think Israel isn't a peace loving country? Granted, they've never been given an opportunity to be peaceful, but you can hardly blame them for that, not fairly, at any rate. Israel does have religious zealots, but it also has a lot of secular Jews who can pretty much do as they want, within reason. The religious zealots don't have a government run by harsh and unforgiving Jewish law, for example, the way most Palestinians want Sharia.

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Israel has a very big Palestinian problem.  It can't very well kill all the Arabs who live in the WB but it can't annex the land without committing demographic suicide.  A 2 state solution would anger the religious and right-wingers who believe the land should stay with Israel, so there is no way out but to continue the status quo.

I disagree. The only sensible way out is to give the West bank to Jordan and Gaza to Egypt.

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Is there really any reason to demolish solar plants donated by Europeans?  Or schools a week before classes are about to start?  Serious questions.

Hate begets hate. Decades of hate begets very deep hatred. On both sides.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Having a friendly & powerful liberal democracy in a very strategically important part of the world is overall a good thing.

However, we've turned a blind eye to some of their illegal behaviour & that's caused the West to lose more legitimacy among other ME countries & peoples which has caused problems for us too, including helping to radicalize terrorists.
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Offline JBG

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If I were a peace-loving nation who minded my own business, no I certainly would not want that living next to me.  But if I were a de facto theocracy wherein a large chunk of my electorate were religious zealots who believed a disputed part of land is promised to me by god, then yes, I think Hamas would be exactly the kind of enemy I'd want.

Israel has a very big Palestinian problem.  It can't very well kill all the Arabs who live in the WB but it can't annex the land without committing demographic suicide.  A 2 state solution would anger the religious and right-wingers who believe the land should stay with Israel, so there is no way out but to continue the status quo.

Is there really any reason to demolish solar plants donated by Europeans?  Or schools a week before classes are about to start?  Serious questions.

They need Hamas.  They need that enemy so they can continue flattening Palestnian homes and building Jewish settlements on them.

You and everyone else who 'supports' such a theocracy should really questions these actions. 

Stealing land has nothing to do with Hamas.
Obviously we agree here. I wonder how many supporters of Hamas like the way they treat women and gays?
Having a friendly & powerful liberal democracy in a very strategically important part of the world is overall a good thing.

However, we've turned a blind eye to some of their illegal behaviour & that's caused the West to lose more legitimacy among other ME countries & peoples which has caused problems for us too, including helping to radicalize terrorists.
I think we have to turn a blind eye towards some imperfections. In much of the world being perfect equals being dead.
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Offline BC_cheque

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Obviously we agree here. I wonder how many supporters of Hamas like the way they treat women and gays?I think we have to turn a blind eye towards some imperfections.

Wait, before I answer that, did you really say we agree?!?  Because I'm pretty much saying Israel is trying to keep millions of people stateless and without human rights, just because it doesn't want to annex them and give them citizenship, and the only way to do this is to provoke and entice a perpetual state of war by doing extremely cruel things like demolishing schools and taking basic necessities from them.

You agree???

Offline BC_cheque

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I disagree. The only sensible way out is to give the West bank to Jordan and Gaza to Egypt.

In your 'support' of Israel, do you think Israel has any intention of ever giving up the West Bank to Jordan (even if Jordan wanted it)?

And if this perfect scenario does not come to fruition, are you ok with Israel demolishing Palestinian homes, schools,, livelihood and basic necessities and building Jewish settlements on them?