Author Topic: Iran Protests  (Read 150 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline MH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7713
Iran Protests
« on: December 30, 2017, 08:26:25 am »
http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/30/middleeast/iran-protests-intl/index.html

Protests fuelled by rising prices ... leading to upset with the theocratic regime.  There are also reports of a women's rights angle, which I know has been an edgy thing in Iran (unlike Saudi Arabia). 

Share on Facebook Share on Twitter


Offline SirJohn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5801
Re: Iran Protests
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2017, 09:50:20 am »
http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/30/middleeast/iran-protests-intl/index.html

Protests fuelled by rising prices ... leading to upset with the theocratic regime.  There are also reports of a women's rights angle, which I know has been an edgy thing in Iran (unlike Saudi Arabia).

It won't get anywhere. When was the last time you hear of a popular uprising in one of these places? I believe the advent of technology has made such things impossible in that they make government monitoring of anyone who might become a 'populist leader' so simple, and make it so much easier to monitor and interfere with communications. Vietnam just announced it has assigned a 10,000 member cyber unit to monitor and eliminate'wrongful views' on the internet. We talk about how social media has made communications among groups so much easier but it's also so much easier to monitor and control. And when you're used to getting your information on social media you rely on it.

Those who make 'wrongful views' known will quickly be arrested and punished, and things will settle down again.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline MH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7713
Re: Iran Protests
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2017, 10:05:18 am »
It won't get anywhere. When was the last time you hear of a popular uprising in one of these places?

Arab Spring ?

Quote
I believe the advent of technology has made such things impossible in that they make government monitoring of anyone who might become a 'populist leader' so simple, and make it so much easier to monitor and interfere with communications.

Well, Arab Spring would say the opposite.  They were unable to contain popular protests, which led to toppling regimes in several countries and continued unrest in others.

Quote
Vietnam just announced it has assigned a 10,000 member cyber unit to monitor and eliminate'wrongful views' on the internet. We talk about how social media has made communications among groups so much easier but it's also so much easier to monitor and control. And when you're used to getting your information on social media you rely on it.

Those who make 'wrongful views' known will quickly be arrested and punished, and things will settle down again.

Your take on this is bizarre.  Decentralized communication is so much harder to control than, say, state-controlled media: television, newspaper and radio.  For the latter, you just have to send troops to occupy the location and broadcast out your version of the news.  State Internet Service Providers CAN block sites like Twitter.

Now I am wondering why Egypt, say, did not do that.  And, since I started typing this post I am wondering if I'm wrong.

I found this article:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/feb/25/twitter-facebook-uprisings-arab-libya

It looks like I am not quite 100% right.  Tunisia was Facebook-based, Egypt started as Twitter but they DID shut it down.  However the protests had started.  I will maintain that decentralized communication will unleash the same type of populism globally that the printing press did.

Your post did make me think, though.  Thank you.

Offline SirJohn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5801
Re: Iran Protests
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2017, 10:21:48 am »
Arab Spring ?

Only worked where there was no real control or monitoring of the internet. And it taught other governments. You think anything like that could be organized in China or Russia... or Iran? Iran tightly monitors the internet.

Quote
Your take on this is bizarre.  Decentralized communication is so much harder to control than, say, state-controlled media: television, newspaper and radio.  For the latter, you just have to send troops to occupy the location and broadcast out your version of the news.  State Internet Service Providers CAN block sites like Twitter.

But everyone knows state media is BS in a dictatorship. They don't trust it. The way you deal with social media is to A) block content based on algorithms which can monitor 24/7, B) arrest those who post anti-government views, and C) post pro-government views by 'ordinary people' to counter what few anti-government views get through the system.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Rue

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 835
  • The beast feeds on fear - I feast on the beast.
  • Location: inside a matrix
Re: Iran Protests
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2017, 10:52:07 am »
The  point Sor J made MH which is valid and you did not respond to is there has been no change in political systems in what you pointed out. Nothing changed in Egypt, Tunisia, etc. Not a damn thing. Thousands of students were killed in Iran and many more will be before that fascist regime is overthrown. Turkey is now even more of a fascist dictatorship crushing any uprisings it had. Likewise Tunisia, Algeria, on and on.

The fact is the Middle East is one large pit of fascism surrounding Israel. There is not one country in the Middle East other than Israel with democratic institutions, an independent court system, and a free press. The reason for that is simple -Islam and sharia law prevent democracy. As for the rest of the world if you think twitter or internet will result in regime changes in Russia or China you are mistaken.

George Bush was na´ve thinking without democratic institutions like independent courts, free press, there could be democracies in Iraq, etc. In fact Obama's Muslim Brotherhood troika with Erdogan and Morsi was never about democracy, it was a pathetic attempt to create a Muslim power network built on mimicking the Masonic lodge structure to control Muslim nations. It failed. The Muslim Brotherhood was not about democracy it was about a political network of elitist control by a few rich Muslims seeking to replace corrupted colonial monarchies of yester year with their own fat cats.

Today If anything the internet is being used to control the masses no different than tagging us. People voluntarily agree to be tagged with their cell phones and use of the internet. We are all now under control of interests whose needs use the internet as a method to captivate and gain access to  us. There is nothing conspiratorial about it. Its called marketing.  Every move, every purchase you make, someone is logging it and quantifying it to use to better understand you to control your decision making. You are given the illusion of free choice but every decision is being influenced right down to the next purchase. Its the price of info technology. It does away with privacy.

In the next few years the US is going to replace the Social Security card with a chip implant inserted in one's arm by needle and this will spread across the world and we will volunteer to do it thinking its a great way to keep children safe, track consumer spending, diseases, terrorists, criminals. Welcome to the world of the Mark of the Beast as some conspiracy buffs like to call it. Its reality. Its called info technology and it does not create freedom, it creates the illusion of freedom and knowledge.

Get back to me when you can explain one spring uprising that changed anything.

That said, I do believe in the next five years uprisings in Egypt, Iran, Turkey, let alone Europe, China, Russia, the US could of course happen. How effective they would be in changing anything will be hard to know. Usually uprisings lead to backlashes where more control by the state against individuals is then justified. That has been the pattern in history.

We take down Hitler and overnight Stalin moved in and filled the vacuum across Europe. China has been under state control since 1949. India controls its masses by a caste system and a complex web of having to pay civil servants each step of the way in any procedure to do anything.

There's ways to control. In Canada we get taxed up the wazoo and we have people on this forum welcoming the increased taxes by Trudeau seeing no contradiction in his b.s. agenda of claiming to represent the Middle Class.

Trump? He's a puppet figure head. Does anyone really think he controls anything? He's a loud fart in the foreground to distract from what is transpiring. The only thing it looks like is that all the centralized regulatory schemes of Obama are being dismantled in terms of financial market places, certainly  no increase of  individual liberties. Let's get real. Obama started the wall with Mexico not Trump. Obama the alleged leftist had no problem with Homeland Security, the FBI, the CIA, etc. In fact its Trump if anyone questioning them but does anyone think Trump is a libertarian or a promoter of individual rights?

I sound like Ron Paul. I better stop. My point is the uprisings were brief burps and in the grand scheme of things NOTHING.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2017, 11:08:34 am by Rue »
You have me mistaken with an eagle. I only come to eat your carcass.

Offline MH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7713
Re: Iran Protests
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2017, 11:05:45 am »
Only worked where there was no real control or monitoring of the internet. And it taught other governments. You think anything like that could be organized in China or Russia... or Iran? Iran tightly monitors the internet.

I concur, but your original point is still impacted.  Decentralized communication is more difficult to control.  If we had low-level satellite ISPs it would be impossible.

Quote
But everyone knows state media is BS in a dictatorship. They don't trust it. The way you deal with social media is to A) block content based on algorithms which can monitor 24/7, B) arrest those who post anti-government views, and C) post pro-government views by 'ordinary people' to counter what few anti-government views get through the system.

Yes, that's a point but you can still make an impact with state media.  Merely holding the stations shows you are in control.   In an open society, you can't control the populist beast hence we have Trump in the US and The Rebel in Canada.


Offline MH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7713
Re: Iran Protests
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2017, 11:08:35 am »
Rue, you are overreaching when you say there has been NO change in Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, Yemen etc. 

It's difficult for older people to understand new media, so I recommend you read McLuhan's take on the printing press as a primer.

Offline cybercoma

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2720
Re: Iran Protests
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2017, 03:24:50 pm »
It's difficult for older people to understand new media, so I recommend you read McLuhan's take on the printing press as a primer.
Ouch.

Offline MH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7713
Re: Iran Protests
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2017, 08:32:12 am »
Ouch.

Hey. I'm the goose, and I am helping the ganders here.

I used to scoff at older folks problems with technology.  Now, I try to use my Bell remote and even with my background managing user interface development I can't even.  Of course the interface IS bad, but so is my old brain.

 

Offline Rue

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 835
  • The beast feeds on fear - I feast on the beast.
  • Location: inside a matrix
Re: Iran Protests
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2017, 02:35:53 pm »
Rue, you are overreaching when you say there has been NO change in Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, Yemen etc. 

It's difficult for older people to understand new media, so I recommend you read McLuhan's take on the printing press as a primer.

Lol. Older? Tell me how democratic is Tunisia, Egypt, after the spring uprisings? What changed? Do tell me youngster.

p.s. I am not writing this with a typewriter you know
You have me mistaken with an eagle. I only come to eat your carcass.

guest4

  • Guest
Re: Iran Protests
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2017, 03:59:32 pm »
Lol. Older? Tell me how democratic is Tunisia, Egypt, after the spring uprisings? What changed? Do tell me youngster.

p.s. I am not writing this with a typewriter you know

Tunisia has changed, but its an ongoing struggle and slow progress.  Likely decades before we know if it really took.

Egyptian presidents are now limited to two four-year terms as one result of their Arab Spring.   Status of women has also been improved, on paper, but again it will likely be decades before that comes to fruition.  Societal change is slow.

Offline kimmy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3912
  • Location: Kim City BC
Re: Iran Protests
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2018, 09:18:47 am »
Supreme Leader Snoke Khamenei dismisses the protest and claims that the unrest has been created by Iran's enemies.

And while at first glance this sounds like a Trump-like thing to do, there might be something to it:
Quote
"Based on our analyses, around 27% of the new hashtags against Iran are generated by the Saudi government," Shamkhani said, according to state-run Press TV.
http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/02/middleeast/iran-protests/index.html

Needless to say, claims from the government must be taken with a grain of salt, and Iran's Press TV is down there with Russia Today and Breitpravda in terms of credibility. Nevertheless, the claim is at the very least plausible.

 -k
Masked for your safety.

Offline Gorgeous Graham

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4820
Re: Iran Protests
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2018, 09:32:57 am »
The Iran government is a bunch of vile scumbags, I would protest them too if I lived there.
"The economy has been relatively strong but Trudeau has chosen to run deficits year after year & has said will continue to do so well into the future.  This means we'll be in a worse & more vulnerable financial position when a recession hits when we HAVE to run deficits again." - Me, Oct. 3, 2019

Offline JBG

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 180
  • Left-Wing Democrat (similar to NDP)
  • Location: New York area
Re: Iran Protests
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2018, 09:41:32 am »
The  point Sor J made MH which is valid and you did not respond to is there has been no change in political systems in what you pointed out. Nothing changed in Egypt, Tunisia, etc. Not a damn thing. Thousands of students were killed in Iran and many more will be before that fascist regime is overthrown. Turkey is now even more of a fascist dictatorship crushing any uprisings it had. Likewise Tunisia, Algeria, on and on.

The fact is the Middle East is one large pit of fascism surrounding Israel. There is not one country in the Middle East other than Israel with democratic institutions, an independent court system, and a free press. The reason for that is simple -Islam and sharia law prevent democracy. As for the rest of the world if you think twitter or internet will result in regime changes in Russia or China you are mistaken.
Absolutely right so far.

George Bush was na´ve thinking without democratic institutions like independent courts, free press, there could be democracies in Iraq, etc. In fact Obama's Muslim Brotherhood troika with Erdogan and Morsi was never about democracy, it was a pathetic attempt to create a Muslim power network built on mimicking the Masonic lodge structure to control Muslim nations. It failed. The Muslim Brotherhood was not about democracy it was about a political network of elitist control by a few rich Muslims seeking to replace corrupted colonial monarchies of yester year with their own fat cats******My point is the uprisings were brief burps and in the grand scheme of things NOTHING.
It was worth a try. To paraphrase Einstein it's stupidity when you try something, it doesn't work and  you repeat it. It was a beautiful, failed dream. The dream worked well in Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Poland, Hungary, (the former) East Germany, Ukraine, Romania and Bulgaria. All these places had no democratic tradition and they are all working towards such a system. It's not perfect but it's good. Czechoslovakia, now the Czech Republic and Slovakia had some pre-WW II experience with democracy. My point is it's worth at least one try, perhaps two, per country.

Today If anything the internet is being used to control the masses no different than tagging us. People voluntarily agree to be tagged with their cell phones and use of the internet. We are all now under control of interests whose needs use the internet as a method to captivate and gain access to  us. There is nothing conspiratorial about it. Its called marketing.  Every move, every purchase you make, someone is logging it and quantifying it to use to better understand you to control your decision making. You are given the illusion of free choice but every decision is being influenced right down to the next purchase. Its the price of info technology. It does away with privacy.****That said, I do believe in the next five years uprisings in Egypt, Iran, Turkey, let alone Europe, China, Russia, the US could of course happen. How effective they would be in changing anything will be hard to know. Usually uprisings lead to backlashes where more control by the state against individuals is then justified. That has been the pattern in history.
If the demonstrations start fast enough it might overwhelm the regime. Couldn't happen to nicer people.

We take down Hitler and overnight Stalin moved in and filled the vacuum across Europe.
Thank Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt for that. Unlike most people I do not rank him among the greats. I rank him with Buchanan, Pierce, Fillmore, Nixon and Carter at the bottom.

China has been under state control since 1949. India controls its masses by a caste system and a complex web of having to pay civil servants each step of the way in any procedure to do anything.
Those two countries illustrate my view of history which is similar to yours; nothing or very little changes. China is basically at the same place as it was in the 1500's, complete with blaming past rulers for floods, droughts, earthquakes as well as inflation and poverty. Charles Mann's excellent 1493 about post-Columbian disruption covers the topic beautifully. The influx of silver cased a great inflation and the boom caused farming on steep slopes. When this proved ecologically unsound in a big way the previous rulers were blamed. Remember how in the late 1970's Mao's wife and the Gang of Four was blamed for the same type of thing? The more things change....

There's ways to control. In Canada we get taxed up the wazoo and we have people on this forum welcoming the increased taxes by Trudeau seeing no contradiction in his b.s. agenda of claiming to represent the Middle Class.
How can you not like Pretty Boy, or the Trudeau Without Brains?

Trump? He's a puppet figure head. Does anyone really think he controls anything? He's a loud fart in the foreground to distract from what is transpiring. The only thing it looks like is that all the centralized regulatory schemes of Obama are being dismantled in terms of financial market places, certainly  no increase of  individual liberties. Let's get real. Obama started the wall with Mexico not Trump. Obama the alleged leftist had no problem with Homeland Security, the FBI, the CIA, etc. In fact its Trump if anyone questioning them but does anyone think Trump is a libertarian or a promoter of individual rights?
The Trump Derangement People think that to their peril.  He is changing a lot. He isn't perfect but he's better on individual rights than Obama. And pulling out of the Climate Accords and recognizing Jerusalem as the capital is big.

I better stop.
Your posts are always too long but I have gotten to like  you.
Trump - Watch what he does, not how he says it.

====================
 If it's us or them, I choose us

Offline MH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7713
Re: Iran Protests
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2018, 10:06:04 am »
Lol. Older? Tell me how democratic is Tunisia, Egypt, after the spring uprisings? What changed? Do tell me youngster.

p.s. I am not writing this with a typewriter you know

The regime changed in Egypt, and the government stepped back from an unstable Muslim Brotherhood government.

Tunisia is described here:
https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2017/tunisia

Now, are you going to stand on the claim that there was 'no change' ?  Or are you going to be a righteous person and admit you overreached as I said ?  Or will you stubbornly assert your ego and refuse to admit something that would bruise your feelings ?

Let's click and see.