Author Topic: International Jewish Voices  (Read 4802 times)

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Offline Granny

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #195 on: June 03, 2019, 09:00:33 am »
Haaretz is admittedly a left-wing 'alternative' voice in Israel, not majority Israeli opinion, perhaps, but worth considering nonetheless.

Democracy for every Israeli and Palestinian: It’s not hard
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-democracy-for-everyone-it-s-not-hard-1.7312557

If the United States decided to deprive the southern states of the right to vote, it would cease being democratic. If Germany did the same against the country’s Jews, it would again be declared a threat to humanity.

Elections in Israel aren’t general elections and so they’re not democratic. The country can continue to masquerade as the only democracy in the Middle East. A new law letting the Knesset override Supreme Court decisions could represent the final declaration of the end of Israeli democracy. The end of the masquerade.

If adjoining towns are distinguished by their right to vote in elections that determine the fate of both, that’s not democracy. If the West Bank settlement of Itamar goes to the polls, but not the West Bank Palestinian city of Nablus, that’s not democracy. If the Jews of the West Bank town of Hebron vote in elections but the Palestinian residents of Hebron don’t, that’s apartheid. It’s that simple and that’s how things are.

As long as Israel uses the cover that the situation in the West Bank is temporary, it’s tolerable. But the ruse is up. No significant political camp in Israel will ever intend to end the occupation, whether on the Zionist right, left or center. Nobody.

As a result, Israel is defining itself as undemocratic. And when the world understands that, it will come at a price. And when Israel understands it, the country will ask itself if it’s willing to pay that price.

Only one path remains: democracy for everyone, for everyone living under Israeli rule. It’s astounding that this even needs to be stated. And even more astounding is that it’s considered subversive. The redress will come in a general election. Just imagine.


Historical justifications can be attempted for the occupation and apartheid situation that exists. But just looking at the situation itself, it is not democracy.
It's not just, and it's not a long term solution as is.
So what are Israel's plans to end the occupation, the apartheid, the discrimination against Palestinians?


« Last Edit: June 03, 2019, 09:44:28 pm by Granny »

Offline Rue

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #196 on: June 04, 2019, 12:57:53 pm »

So what are Israel's plans to end the occupation, the apartheid, the discrimination against Palestinians?

What are the plans of Hamas or the PA to end terrorism?

The two are directly interrelated questions not separate.

In regards to the accusation of apartheid:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/22/israel-injustices-not-apartheid-state
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Offline waldo

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #197 on: June 04, 2019, 04:20:20 pm »
So what are Israel's plans to end the occupation, the apartheid, the discrimination against Palestinians?

should we be surprised the memberRue didn't answer... and instead turned your question around to ask, "What are the plans of Hamas or the PA to end terrorism?" Isn't that called "whataboutism"?  ;D
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Offline Granny

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #198 on: June 04, 2019, 05:56:23 pm »
should we be surprised the memberRue didn't answer... and instead turned your question around to ask, "What are the plans of Hamas or the PA to end terrorism?" Isn't that called "whataboutism"?  ;D
Ya, I won't respond to that.
It's also called  ... Netanyahu's Israel has no intention of ever lifting the restrictions on water and other basic necessities of Palestinians, stopping the disproportionate violence and deaths, bulldozing Palestinian homes, incarcerating minors, etc etc etc - occupation, apartheid & discrimination will continue until ... ???
Until US Christian 'Zionists' (who are actually anti-Semites) stop funding Israel's war machine?

Rue and Vid have only explanations/excuses for why it 'has to be' the way it is, why 'It's Palestinians fault', no thoughts for a better future.
Sad, really.

And I am very glad to know that there are more moderate, more hopeful Jewish, Israeli and Palestinian people everywhere who work to understand, to try to improve relations, to put pressure on the Israeli government and businesses.

B'tselem human rights group in Israel publishes informative articles and ongoing stats:
http://www.btselem.org/statistics

Israelis have largely given up trying to convince Palestinians to understand their point of view, that they crave security from their history of persecution. This is largely because the overwhelming force of the occupation means they don't have to convince Palestinians of anything, but Palestinians have few other options.

I think everybody understands that Israeli Jews and Jews worldwide "crave security" from persecution.
What's impossible to accept is that some Israeli Jews justify inflicting persecution on others. 

Is persecution not just ... wrong?

Canadians are not blameless. We've persecuted Indigenous Peoples, and many have tried to justify that too, but it is just wrong.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2019, 07:10:43 pm by Granny »
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Offline Rue

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #199 on: June 05, 2019, 08:39:57 am »
Ya, I won't respond to that.
It's also called  ... Netanyahu's Israel has no intention of ever lifting the restrictions on water and other basic necessities of Palestinians, stopping the disproportionate violence and deaths, bulldozing Palestinian homes, incarcerating minors, etc etc etc - occupation, apartheid & discrimination will continue until ... ???
Until US Christian 'Zionists' (who are actually anti-Semites) stop funding Israel's war machine?

Rue and Vid have only explanations/excuses for why it 'has to be' the way it is, why 'It's Palestinians fault', no thoughts for a better future.
Sad, really.

And I am very glad to know that there are more moderate, more hopeful Jewish, Israeli and Palestinian people everywhere who work to understand, to try to improve relations, to put pressure on the Israeli government and businesses.

B'tselem human rights group in Israel publishes informative articles and ongoing stats:
http://www.btselem.org/statistics

Israelis have largely given up trying to convince Palestinians to understand their point of view, that they crave security from their history of persecution. This is largely because the overwhelming force of the occupation means they don't have to convince Palestinians of anything, but Palestinians have few other options.

I think everybody understands that Israeli Jews and Jews worldwide "crave security" from persecution.
What's impossible to accept is that some Israeli Jews justify inflicting persecution on others. 

Is persecution not just ... wrong?

Canadians are not blameless. We've persecuted Indigenous Peoples, and many have tried to justify that too, but it is just wrong.

It is my responsibility to other posters on this forum to practice what I preach and show them respect so I have done it here.. There is another side of this debate I offer. I can be more brief when I do and I am trying. Sorry but  My responses are done the forum spirit of two sided debate. Don't read it if you disagree. It is respect for what you try argue that causes me to resond not ignoring what you say. Granny, nothing in what I share makes excuses  but y es  it does explain that for every action is a reaction in a conflict and to understand it and try achieve peace we need to look at how both trigger one another. Nothing in what I said blames Palestinians as people. It does explain though why Israelis and Palestinians are both equally caught in a conflict and how terrorism is at the root cause of it. There are haters on both sides. No hater is right.
Sad, really.
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Offline waldo

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #200 on: June 05, 2019, 09:13:20 am »
Israelis and Palestinians are both equally caught in a conflict and how terrorism is at the root cause of it. There are haters on both sides. No hater is right.

terrorism on both sides... good on ya member Rue, good on ya for acknowledging Israeli contributions!
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Offline Granny

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #201 on: June 05, 2019, 09:41:56 am »
It is my responsibility to other posters on this forum to practice what I preach and show them respect so I have done it here.. There is another side of this debate I offer. I can be more brief when I do and I am trying. Sorry but  My responses are done the forum spirit of two sided debate. Don't read it if you disagree. It is respect for what you try argue that causes me to resond not ignoring what you say.
Irrelevant and unnecessary personal comments.
Cease and desist.

Quote
Granny, nothing in what I share makes excuses
Horsesh!t.
Quote
  but y es  it does explain that for every action is a reaction in a conflict and to understand it and try achieve peace we need to look at how both trigger one another.
You could blog the history from your Jewish-American perspective, post a link to it and perhaps quote succinctly from it where relevant.

I would suggest also that it would be useful to have a Palestinian-American post the same history from their perspective.
With cross-links and references to each other's work.
Perhaps even trying to merge them into one 'statement of facts', similar to a court document.

A worthy project don't you think?
And a very good reference piece for discussions here and elsewhere.
So you don't have to repeat the same things over and over and over at great length here.

Quote
Nothing in what I said blames Palestinians as people.
 It does explain though why Israelis and Palestinians are both equally caught in a conflict and how terrorism is at the root cause of it. There are haters on both sides. No hater is right.
Sad, really.

Unacceptable, really.
The time for excuses as to why 'it can't work' is over.

The oppression of Palestinians' human rights by Israel  simply must end.
.

« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 09:51:41 am by Granny »
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Offline Pinus or Vid or...?????

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #202 on: June 05, 2019, 10:49:08 am »
Irrelevant and unnecessary personal comments.
Cease and desist.

Horsesh!t.You could blog the history from your Jewish-American perspective, post a link to it and perhaps quote succinctly from it where relevant.

I would suggest also that it would be useful to have a Palestinian-American post the same history from their perspective.
With cross-links and references to each other's work.
Perhaps even trying to merge them into one 'statement of facts', similar to a court document.

A worthy project don't you think?
And a very good reference piece for discussions here and elsewhere.
So you don't have to repeat the same things over and over and over at great length here.


Unacceptable, really.
The time for excuses as to why 'it can't work' is over.

The oppression of Palestinians' human rights by Israel  simply must end.
.
Now you are just being a condescending bully.  You are not the moderator.  Stop telling others how they can or cannot post.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 10:50:59 am by Vid »
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Offline Granny

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #203 on: June 05, 2019, 03:06:00 pm »
Bernie Sanders
https://shar.es/a0hJyZ
Sanders began by saying that anti-Semitism is not an abstract idea to him. “I am Jewish and very proud of my heritage.” His father emigrated from Poland at the age of 17 to escape discrimination.
"Those in his family who remained in Poland after Hitler came to power were murdered by the Nazis. Antisemitism is not some abstract idea to me. It is very personal. It destroyed a good part of my family.”
...
"We must say loudly and clearly that to oppose the reactionary policies of Netanyahu doesn’t make anyone anti-Israel. Let me say it again, I am vigorously opposed to the reactionary, racist and authoritarian policies of Donald Trump. That does not make me anti-American. I am not anti-Israel because I oppose Netanyahu’s policies."
...
"I see Israel making enormous technological advances with the capacity to serve as an engine of innovation and prosperity for the entire region, yet unable to achieve this goal because of its unresolved conflict with the Palestinians. I see a Palestinian people crushed under a military occupation now over a half century old, creating a daily reality of pain, humiliation and resentment. Let me be clear, I do not know how peace can be achieved in that region when in the Gaza Strip poverty is rampant, 53 percent of the the people are unemployed, the number of unemployed is even higher for young people. And 99 percent of the residents cannot leave that area. That is not a sustainable situation. Ending that occupation and enabling the Palestinians to have independence and self-determination in a sovereign, independent, economically viable state of their own is in the best interest of the United States, Israel, the Palestinians and the entire region. It is a necessary step in insuring that Israel is accepted and integrated into a region it has so much to offer."
...
"The truth is that the parameters of a solution are well-known. They are based in international law, they are based in multiple UN Security Council resolutions, and they are supported by an overwhelmingly international consensus. Two states based on the 1967 lines with Jerusalem as the capital of both states."

Offline Granny

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #204 on: June 05, 2019, 03:26:32 pm »
Canada activists disrupt top supporter of Israeli war crimes
https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/video-canada-activists-disrupt-top-supporter-israeli-war-crimes
Lascaris says that he used to believe that Cotler, a prominent figure in Canada’s Israel lobby, was a “true defender of human rights.”

“But I’ve learned since then that you refuse to criticize a regime which is running roughshod over the human rights of the Palestinian people, and I find that disgraceful,” Lascaris says.

“Are you prepared to criticize Israel for anything?”

Cotler refuses to answer as people in the audience can be heard chanting, “Palestine will be free,” and demanding that the former justice minister address the question about Gaza.

Eventually Cotler asserts that for the last four decades, “I’ve been a supporter of two states for two peoples.”
...
“Wittingly or unwittingly, Cotler has assumed the function of legitimizing the support for the Zionist entity among liberals and moderate progressives in Canada, and he does this effectively because in matters unrelated to Palestine he has engaged in advocacy promoting human rights around the world,” Lascaris said.

“But he behaves as if historic Palestine is a human rights-free zone and as if the laws that apply to other actors are inapplicable there.”

Indeed, Trudeau has acknowledged Cotler’s influence on the Canadian government’s extreme pro-Israel policies, including its smear campaign against the nonviolent BDS – boycott, divestment and sanctions – movement for Palestinian rights.


« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 04:40:31 pm by Granny »
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Offline Pinus or Vid or...?????

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #205 on: June 05, 2019, 06:18:02 pm »
When will the World acknowledge the ethnic cleansing of Jews in Arab states?
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Offline waldo

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #207 on: June 06, 2019, 10:52:50 am »
When will the World acknowledge the ethnic cleansing of Jews in Arab states?

you keep nattering on about this; I earlier challenged you for numbers. Notwithstanding your perpetual whataboutism, you fail to distinguish legitimate Jewish refugees (that principally ended up in Israel to fulfill a drive to become a part of the 'Jewish state') and those Jews with influence/means who chose their country: "Wealthy Baghdadi Jews, the Jewish bourgeoisie of Morocco and Algeria, Jews from Aden and Egypt with British nationality and Iranian Jews tended to choose France, Britain or the US. It was the poor, unskilled, ill-educated Jews who poured into Israel."

once you provide actual substantiated numbers, one can perhaps move to invalidate your want to play off displaced Palestinians and Jews against each other - your drive for a "quid pro-quo" is nothing more than you parroting the latest talking points you come across.
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Offline Granny

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #208 on: June 07, 2019, 11:30:01 am »
Sanders, Warren Introduce Resolution Against Israel Annexing West Bank

https://forward.com/fast-forward/425589/sanders-warren-introduce-resolution-against-israel-annexing-west-bank/

WASHINGTON (JTA) — Five Democratic senators, including the party’s deputy leader in the chamber and two leading presidential candidates, introduced a resolution decrying any Israeli plan to annex West Bank territory, an apparent shot across the bow at Benjamin Netanyahu’s recent election pledge.

“Unilateral annexation of portions of the West Bank would jeopardize prospects for a two-state solution, harm Israel’s relationship with its Arab neighbors, threaten Israel’s Jewish and democratic identity, and undermine Israel’s security,” says the non-binding resolution introduced Thursday.

It says the “the policy of the United States should be to preserve conditions conducive to a negotiated two state solution.”
...
The elections were indecisive and Israelis go to the polls again in September, while Netanyahu remains prime minister.

Netanyahu and President Donald Trump have retreated from endorsing a two-state outcome to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Trump’s son-in-law, Jared Kushner, is set later this month to unveil the economic component of a peace plan he has been preparing for two years.


I don't have an opinion on one-state vs two-state solution, except I think it should be a negotiated solution between Israel and Palestine, not unilateral expansion by Israel.



Offline Pinus or Vid or...?????

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #209 on: June 07, 2019, 11:46:01 am »
Israel said set to seek $250b compensation for Jews forced out of Arab countries


Israel is preparing to demand compensation totaling a reported $250 billion from seven Arab countries and Iran for property and assets left behind by Jews who were forced to flee those countries following the establishment of the State of Israel.

“The time has come to correct the historic injustice of the pogroms (against Jews) in seven Arab countries and Iran, and to restore, to hundreds of thousands of Jews who lost their property, what is rightfully theirs,” Israel’s Minister for Social Equality, Gila Gamliel, who is coordinating the Israeli government’s handling of the issue, said Saturday.

According to figures cited Saturday night by Israel’s Hadashot TV news, compensation demands are now being finalized with regards to the first two of the eight countries involved, with Israel set to seek $35 billion dollars in compensation for lost Jewish assets from Tunisia, and $15 billion dollars from Libya.

In total, the TV report said Israel will seek over $250 billion from those two countries plus Morocco, Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Yemen and Iran.

Justice for Jews from Arab Countries (JJAC), an international umbrella group of Jewish community organizations, has estimated that some 856,000 Jews from 10 Arab countries — the other two were Algeria and Lebanon — fled or were expelled in 1948 and after, while violent Arab riots left many Jews dead or injured.

For the past 18 months, utilizing the services of an international accountancy firm, the Israeli government has quietly been researching the value of property and assets that these Jews were forced to leave behind, the TV report said.


https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-said-set-to-seek-250b-compensation-for-jews-forced-out-of-arab-countries/

It's time the Arabs paid up for the ethnic cleansing committed against Jews in Arab countries.
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