Author Topic: International Jewish Voices  (Read 4759 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Rue

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 835
  • The beast feeds on fear - I feast on the beast.
  • Location: inside a matrix
Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #165 on: May 31, 2019, 08:33:55 am »
Appreciate the arguments, but these are all pro-Israel claims from a pro-Israel source, that's not trying to be objective.

https://www.cnn.com/2015/03/16/middleeast/israel-netanyahu-palestinian-state/index.html

The very same argument could be made for all the pro Palestinian claims from pro Palestinian sources on this thread.

So the point MG? Whose version is more valid?

In fact the sources I provided you are indeed pro Israeli but they are not anti Palestinian.

Absolutely they share the counter-side to the other side and both sides need to be considered equally.

You know that but in this debate its usually one sided with the starting assumption that everything Israel does and
therefore anyone who supports its right to exist free of terrorism hates Palestinians.

Not all Palestinians are victims of Israel. In fact more Palestinians are victims of fellow Palestinian terrorists than
Israeli soldiers.

I say it again, the status quo on the West Bank has serious problems,but by ignoring Palestinian terrorists and the role
they play on the West Bank and in generating unfair policies as a consequence of security issues to deal with them needs
to be understood.

These are not excuses for the conflict, but symptoms of the conflict.

If and when terrorists are disarmed, as was the case in Northern Ireland, then things can be done to address unfair
policies to Palestinians that now exist because of the need to contain terrorists.

For example, if terrorists disarmed on the West Bank, if it became a non militarized zone, both  Jordan and Israel
would open roads and access to their airports for trade which they currently can not do. They could also consider
water irrigation and electric grid projects and address environmental issues.

Terrorists do not want to lose their monopoly on Palestinian government. They require a constant state of war with Israel
to justify their existence. Then they empower right wing extremists in Israel who justify their beliefs as a reaction to these terrorists.

Please before you write off anything pro Israeli, read it.Much of what I provided was in fact  NOT anti Palestinian just because
its pro Israeli.

Thank you.



 
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 08:36:03 am by Rue »
You have me mistaken with an eagle. I only come to eat your carcass.

Offline Granny

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1172
Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #166 on: May 31, 2019, 11:20:29 am »
The very same argument could be made for all the pro Palestinian claims from pro Palestinian sources on this thread.

So the point MG? Whose version is more valid?

In fact the sources I provided you are indeed pro Israeli but they are not anti Palestinian.

Absolutely they share the counter-side to the other side and both sides need to be considered equally.

You know that but in this debate its usually one sided with the starting assumption that everything Israel does and
therefore anyone who supports its right to exist free of terrorism hates Palestinians.

You've started with a twisted and inflammatory accusation about what's in MG's head. Are you trying to provoke a reaction, so you can then claim to be the victim?
If you sincerely don't want to get splashed, don't splash the water with a paddle.

I have different opinions than you, and the right to express them without enduring any more personal insults and attacks from you.
Be aware: I'm not soft pedaling to coddle you and  prevent you from overreacting, Rue. I call it as I see it, and you are  responsible for moderating your own reactions.

Israel pushes Palestinians out of their homes into increasingly smaller and more crowded spaces, limits their access to water, hydro, food, medical care and other necessities of life ... Israel does not get to claim victim status. It's very clear who is the oppressor and who is being oppressed. This is not an 'equal' situation.

Quote
Not all Palestinians are victims of Israel. In fact more Palestinians are victims of fellow Palestinian terrorists than
Israeli soldiers.
Evidence to support this please?

Quote
I say it again, the status quo on the West Bank has serious problems,but by ignoring Palestinian terrorists and the role
they play on the West Bank and in generating unfair policies as a consequence of security issues to deal with them needs to be understood.
The problemmatic "status quo" on the West Bank is due to Israel's aggressive and oppressive actions  (ie, continuing ethnic cleansing and usurping land via creeping invasion of settlements), it is illegal, inflammatory and a problem Israel creates for itself via illegal actions. Of course oppressed people are going to react, fight back, with whatever means they can muster.
Stop the invasion.

Quote
These are not excuses for the conflict, but symptoms of the conflict.
If and when terrorists are disarmed, as was the case in Northern Ireland, then things can be done to address unfair
policies to Palestinians that now exist because of the need to contain terrorists.
Other way around: First, stop the aggression, invasion and oppression so Palestinians can live comfortably and safely.
Israel is the aggressor, the oppressor, but not the victor: demanding subjugation and disarmament of Palestinians in conditions that still threaten their lives?  ... That's just not reasonable.
Israel can stop the aggression, improve the conditions of life for Palestinians, to reduce its own security risks.
Palestinians have every right to defend themselves from Israel's creeping invasion.

Quote
For example, if terrorists disarmed on the West Bank, if it became a non militarized zone, both  Jordan and Israel
would open roads and access to their airports for trade which they currently can not do. They could also consider
water irrigation and electric grid projects and address environmental issues.
As above: Stop the invasion and oppression that inflames opposition.

Quote
Terrorists do not want to lose their monopoly on Palestinian government. They require a constant state of war with Israel
to justify their existence. Then they empower right wing extremists in Israel who justify their beliefs as a reaction to these terrorists.
You are seriously blaming Palestinians for inflaming right-wing Israeli angst and violent overreaction? REALLY?
I actually have to tell you that adult Israelis are responsible for their own over-reactions?!

Quote
Please before you write off anything pro Israeli, read it.Much of what I provided was in fact  NOT anti Palestinian just because
its pro Israeli.

Thank you.

Likewise, right-wing Israel can accept valid criticism of its illegal expansion and oppression of Palestinians without having a worldwide hissy fit and demanding suppression of Canadians' freedom of expression via BDS and other forms of protest.
Your excuses for Israeli aggression and demands for Palestinian subjugation put you in the extreme right-wing camp. I cannot believe that any of your efforts for peace have included equality. Palestinians are just supposed to give up and subjugate themselves in your unrealistic view of 'peace'.

What if ... Netanyahu goes down and Israel becomes more moderate, less demanding, more collaborative in its peace efforts?
Will you be on the outside then?
What is your view of Netanyahu's opposition?
Is there better hope for peace and equality if moderate political forces have more power?

Is defending right-wing extremist Israeli aggressions and overreactions really defending the best of what  Israel aspires to?
Is there a better side of Israel that needs to be supported and promoted, to help overcome the destructive political forces, so that (eg) the status quo on the West Bank no longer has serious problems?

Offline ?Impact

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2941
Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #167 on: May 31, 2019, 03:58:44 pm »
Not all Palestinians are victims of Israel. In fact more Palestinians are victims of fellow Palestinian terrorists than
Israeli soldiers.

Israeli soldiers don't create the laws that victimize Palestinians.

Offline Rue

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 835
  • The beast feeds on fear - I feast on the beast.
  • Location: inside a matrix
Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #168 on: May 31, 2019, 04:23:29 pm »
Granny before you accuse me of being lengthy, all I have done is respond directly to your comments and I did not respond to all of them.

Before I respond let me clear something up. You accused MG of being inappropriate now me. Both of us are simply debating and making points. Nothing in what he said was inflammatory and nothing I said was inflammatory. Ironically your comments on your last thread engage in the very thing you accused him and now me of. Granny with due respect you are reading way far to in to what either of us is saying and you need to step back and police yourself and we will ourselves thank you.

I will start by responding to these  inflammatory comments you stated:

"1-Israel does not get to claim victim status.
2-It's very clear who is the oppressor and who is being oppressed. This is not an 'equal' situation.
3- The problemmatic "status quo" on the West Bank is due to Israel's aggressive and oppressive actions  (ie, continuing ethnic cleansing and usurping land via creeping invasion of settlements), it is illegal, inflammatory and a problem Israel creates for itself via illegal actions.
4-Of course oppressed people are going to react, fight back, with whatever means they can muster."

In regards to 1, Israel has never claimed victim status nor has anyone on this board claimed Israel is a victim. That is your subjective projective of what you think you are reading from me or perhaps someone else.

In regards to 2, you may think its clear and black and white, but some of us say the conflict is far more complex and nuanced with many intricate layers of inter-connected cause and effects than you. Perhaps you find it so black and white because you have made it clear you think you already know what the conflict is about and one consider anything other than your preconceived parameters of discussion.

In regards to 3, you again use language that blames one side and you throw out the false accusation of ethnic cleansing. I provided the population growth of Palestinians on the West Bank. They prove your allegation of ethnic cleansing is nonsense. I also indicated the actual amount of land physically occupied by settlers. Its 6% so when you use words like "squeezing out and creeping invasions" is simply shows you are reading web-sites that tell you this and you accept them. I tried to explain the actual physical size of occupation of settlers and you choose to ignore me.

In regards to 4,  in fact the vast majority of Palestinians  do not engage in terrorism but the vast majority are injured and killed by Palestinian terrorists. In fact your comments insult peaceful Palestinians. What you state implies that Palestinians are not enlightened enough to use the tactics of Ghandi or  Martin Luther King. What you are saying rationalizes terrorism. Every day on this planet people face injustice and they do not choose or react to violence and embrace terror. Terrorism can not and should never be rationalized.

You then stated, " First, stop the aggression, invasion and oppression so Palestinians can live comfortably and safely." Well  Israel did and withdrew from Gaza and Hamas has been attacking Israel ever since it left. Israel withdrew from Lebanon and the day Israel left Hezbollah has been attacking it ever since. In fact Israel did repeatedly try to withdraw from the West Bank through protracted negotiations with Arafat. That was what the Oslo accord was supposed to commence. It was Arafat who stated to the world he bargained in bad faith and would never live side by side peacefully with Israel and the only solution is taking back all of Israel and Jordan and ripped that treaty up. Hamas and the PA have Charters that state clearly that until all of Israel and Jordan are placed in a Sunni Muslim state, so it is absurd to tell Israel not to defend itself.  Israel  can not sit by and  nothing while its people are attacked by Hamas and other terror cells which happens every day Granny. You have no idea how small and compact the land is you talk of and just how close Israel and its people are from terror attacks. No peace came about in Northern Ireland until the IRA disbanded. There was a reason for that. Israel has has an obligation to protect its citizens from terror.

You then stated:

"Israel is the aggressor, the oppressor, but not the victor: demanding subjugation and disarmament of Palestinians in conditions that still threaten their lives?  ... That's just not reasonable."

Some of Israeli state policies and some actions by the IDF have been aggressive, oppressive.  Your statement is extremist and polarizing though because Israel is not always the aggressor. Further, the state of Israel has never used rhetoric that describes itself as the victor over Palestinians, just the opposite. You clearly do not read their newspapers or watch their t.v. or listen to their radio shows and yes Granny we all agree no one is a victor in any war, everyone suffers. No one claims otherwise. You make those  comments as if  Israelis or the state of Israel would disagree with that. They do not.

Also I want you to provide evidence as you allegation that Israel has asked Palestinians to disarm to endanger their lives. You know you keep asking me for proof, and when I give it you won't read it. I also  expect you at least to back up your allegations. What makes this  one nasty is that IDF soldiers have died protecting Palestinians precisely because Hamas and other terrorists put Palestinians directly in the line of fire. The IDF have placed themselves in front of bullets and bombs to protect Palestinians. That Granny has been verified by Palestinians.

You stated:

"Israel can stop the aggression, improve the conditions of life for Palestinians, to reduce its own security risks. " Yes it can do a better job on certain actions to reduce tensions. Again you state this as if its being questioned or contested in this thread. Its not.

You state:

"Palestinians have every right to defend themselves from Israel's creeping invasion. " Do you speak for Palestinians? Do you really know what they want or do you assume you know and can speak for them because you read things on the internet?Sorry but when it comes to the future of Palestinians and what they seek and want, I think you should quote them and not speak for them and if you do try quite all their opinions not just the ones you would agree with.


You stated:"You are seriously blaming Palestinians for inflaming right-wing Israeli angst and violent overreaction? REALLY? " No, I have never done that. You again do not read what I write and project the above meaning on it. Provide one word from me where I blamed Palestinians for anything.  Granny this is not the first time you have misrepresented what I said. When I ask you to back up your claim, you don't. Please stop misrepresenting what  I state.  What I have stated on this forum over and over is that I do NOT speak for Palestinians or Israelis, I speak for myself, and I do not BLAME any Palestinian or Israeli but to be crystal clear I accuse terrorists of making peace impossible. I blame terrorists not innocent civilians. Read please what I write.

Then you stated: "I actually have to tell you that adult Israelis are responsible for their own over-reactions?!" Which Israelis? You see you make a statement claiming Israelis over react. You have no examples. What you have done is present a negative stereotype of Israelis. In fact you engage in the very inflammatory rhetoric you accused me or MG of. Which adults do you refer to and what comments did they say?

You stated:"Likewise, right-wing Israel can accept valid criticism of its illegal expansion and oppression of Palestinians without having a world wide hissy fit and demanding suppression of Canadians' freedom of expression via BDS and other forms of protest." Again you use deliberately inflammatory language. In fact many Israeli right wingers have defended Palestinian rights. You just do not know them Many engage in dialogue with Palestinians. Your reference to hissy fits and demanding suppression of Canadian's freedom of expression of BDS is based on what? Do you have evidence or is this another one of your projections? It was the The Canadian  Parliament that with a few absentees unanimously condemned BDS. One of them was Omar Alleghbra, Trudeau's Middle East advisor and hardly a supporter of Israel. He stated what many state not just in Canada but world-wide and that is because  BDS calls not just for the boycott of Israeli products, but the end of Israel as a Jewish state it is not engaging in peaceful dialogue. That is why even pro Palestinians reject it. You can be pro Palestinian but not anti Israel.  You want to defend BDS no one is stopping you but please don't try portray them as only wanting a boycott and please don't exaggerate and claim Right Wing Israelis are in Canada suppressing your views. No one is.

You then stated:

"Your excuses for Israeli aggression and demands for Palestinian subjugation put you in the extreme right-wing camp. " You now stereotype and label me Granny. Who gives you that right? In fact Granny I am considered in Israel and in Canada and in the Jewish and non Jewish communities as a centralist. I am neither right or left. If you took the time to read what I write instead of imposing your preconceived stereotypes on me you would know that. Your stereotyping of me tries to turn the thread into a personal issue about me. It doesn't matter what I think. I am not the issue. What Palestinians and Israelis think is what matters. Stop engaging me personally. For a person who lectures me on not personally insulting others, how about you practice what you preach please.

Then you stated: "I cannot believe that any of your efforts for peace have included equality. Palestinians are just supposed to give up and subjugate themselves in your unrealistic view of 'peace'. " You again project negative slurs against me as to my motives and make a statement I never stated as if it is my belief.  It is the very exercise you lecture me and others not to do and then you do it. Please do not tell me you know what my "real agenda" is or what my motives are. That is inappropriate and personal and without basis and no more justified than me saying your motive is to support Palestinian terrorists and destroy Israel.

You asked: "What if ... Netanyahu goes down and Israel becomes more moderate, less demanding, more collaborative in its peace efforts? "
It did. Arafat then ripped up the peace treaty and told the world he bargained in bad faith and never had any intention of making peace. Where were you? Netanyahu was elected precisely because Israelis felt after what Arafat did they had no other choice but to get tougher. If someone promised to make peace with you and shook your hand, then told the world his word meant sweet phack all, what would you do?

You asked me: "What is your view of Netanyahu's opposition? " If you want me to discuss the positions of the other Israeli political parties and their views that will take some time and another thread. I do support a party other then Netanyahu's that is considered centralist. However my opinions are not relevant Granny and you could if you wanted go find out what the other parties are in Israel.

You asked: "Is there better hope for peace and equality if moderate political forces have more power?" There would be a more moderate party in power in Israel if there was a non terrorist moderate party representing Palestinians, for sure.

You asked: "Is defending right-wing extremist Israeli aggressions and overreactions really defending the best of what  Israel aspires to? "
No, just as defending terrorist aggression and overreactions by Palestinian extremists does not really defend what they aspire to be. Why ask such a question. Did you really want an answer or were you making a rhetorical allegation?


You asked: "Is there a better side of Israel that needs to be supported and promoted, to help overcome the destructive political forces, so that (eg) the status quo on the West Bank no longer has serious problems?"  Israeli people  need to be recognized by Palestininians as having a right to a  Jewish state free of terrorist attacks if there is to be a starting point to negotiations at this time with them. At this time the current Palestinian leaders demand Israel recognizes them as a Muslim state in all of Israel, Jordan and the West Bank and says the only thing it will negotiate is how to remove Jews from Israel. So as long as that is the status quo there can be no reason for Israel to sit down at this point. No it will not negotiate its extinction which is what Mr. Abbas has asked they do. If Palestinians once and for all recognized the state of Israel as Jewish  then Israelis could help them build their nation next to Israel's and then extremists on both sides would become obsolete.

Israelis built roads and engaged in peace initiatives side by side Palestinians. They built roads, schools, mosques, hospitals for Palestinians. Hamas chose to blow that all up and openly parade Palestinians in public who got along with Israelis and place burning tires around their necks and accused them of being collaborators.  Are you aware  what happens to Palestinians who openly express moderate or peaceful views with Israel?

I edited this response at 9.01 pm May 31 to try take out unintended personal remarks.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 08:01:42 pm by Rue »
You have me mistaken with an eagle. I only come to eat your carcass.

Offline Omni

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8563
Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #169 on: May 31, 2019, 04:26:17 pm »
Hey, where's Waldo with the word counter?

Offline Granny

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1172
Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #170 on: May 31, 2019, 05:13:16 pm »
Hey, where's Waldo with the word counter?
Lol
Ya, It's long but mine was a bit long too, so I'm not complaining about that.
And It's more sensible than previous.
I'll take me some time to figure out how to respond concisely so ... leaving that to later.

Offline waldo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8848
Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #171 on: May 31, 2019, 07:56:56 pm »
Settler Violence: Absence of Law Enforcement

Quote
Violence by settlers (and sometimes by other Israeli civilians) toward Palestinians has long since become part of daily life under occupation in the West Bank. These actions range from blocking roads, throwing stones at cars and houses, raiding villages and farmland, torching fields and olive groves, and damaging crops and property to physical assault, sometimes to the point of hurling Molotov cocktails or using live fire. Over the years, this widespread violence toward Palestinians has resulted in injuries to life and limb, as well as damage to property and land.

Under international law, Israel has a duty to protect Palestinians in the West Bank from this conduct. However, Israeli authorities routinely shirk this responsibility, even when the violent actions can be anticipated. Thousands of testimonies, videos and reports, as well as many years of close monitoring by B’Tselem and other organizations, reveal that Israeli security forces not only allow settlers to harm Palestinians and their property as a matter of course – they often provide the perpetrators escort and back-up. In some cases, they even join in on the attack. In other instances, security forces have prevented anticipated harm by removing the targeted Palestinians, rather than the Israeli assailants.

The law enforcement agencies, for their part, rarely make settlers face consequences for attacking Palestinians. In almost all cases, the investigations – if one was opened, in the first place – have not resulted in any action taken against the perpetrators. This undeclared policy of lenience toward settler violence aimed at Palestinians has been documented in numerous reports by human rights organizations, as well as in official state reports (such as the Karp Report of 1982 and the Shamgar Report of 1994).

In a ten-year review published in May 2015, human rights organization Yesh Din found that some 85% of investigations into such cases (including violence, arson, damage to property, mutilation of trees and takeover of land) ended with no further action taken, and that the odds of a police complaint filed by a Palestinian resulting in the conviction of an Israeli civilian were a mere 1.9%. Given the futility of this effort, many Palestinians choose to forgo filing a complaint altogether.

Since it was founded in 1989, B’Tselem has been documenting incidents of settler violence against Palestinians and advocating for security forces to fulfill their obligation to protect Palestinians and their property from such injury. For many years, B’Tselem has stressed the duty of Israeli authorities to make the necessary preparations, including allocating forces, to prevent attacks that can be predicted – especially when they are carried out in the open – and arrest the assailants. We have repeatedly called attention to the responsibility of the law enforcement agencies to quickly and efficiently investigate attacks after they take place. B’Tselem has provided the police and the military with documentation of such attacks, including video footage filmed by volunteers. We have also helped Palestinian victims file complaints with the police and have monitored the investigations – including appealing closed cases. After more than 25 years of this work, there is no escaping the conclusion that the authorities merely make a show of law enforcement in this context and that, with few exceptions, they have no interest in seriously investigating settler violence against Palestinians.

A stark example recurs every year during the olive harvest. After repeated settler attacks, the military forbade Palestinian farmers from entering their own land if it lies near a settlement – instead of protecting the farmers by enforcing the law on the settlers. In 2004, the heads of five Palestinian local councils petitioned Israel’s High Court of Justice (HCJ), demanding that the military allow them to access their lands and protect them from settler attacks during the olive harvest. The court accepted the petition about two years later, ruling that the military should not, in general, deny Palestinians access to their land in the name of protecting them. The justices also ruled that the security establishment must “give clear, unequivocal instructions to the forces operating in the field” and also “deploy forces to protect the property of the Palestinian inhabitants” (HCJ 9593/04 Murar et al. v. IDF Commander for Judea and Samaria et al.). As a result, the state created a “coordination system” for supposedly enabling Palestinians throughout the West Bank to access their land for several days, twice a year – during the harvest and plowing seasons. This requires prior coordination with the military, which assigns them a security detail.

In practice, the system does little to resolve this violent reality and is largely another empty show of law enforcement. First, it furthers the assumption that the solution lies with restricting the Palestinian victims, rather than the violent settlers. Second, it is relevant to two specific periods every year, leaving settlers free to roam and vandalize land and trees the rest of the time, while the Palestinian owners are barred access. Third, the military requires Palestinians to undergo such a complicated coordination process and meet so many requirements that, in many cases, attaining access is impossible.

Settler violence has a pervasive impact on life in the West Bank, creating a lingering sense of intimidation. Countless attacks have left their traumatic mark on individual Palestinians and on the collective memory. As a result, many Palestinians now avoid approaching “danger zones” near settlements. Landowners do not dare enter these areas without military escort or Israeli civilians accompanying them. As a result, in some plots, the yield has become so poor that the owners have given up trying to reach the land and tend it. This dynamic has created invisible walls throughout the West Bank, beyond which Palestinians know they face violence to the point of risking their lives.

The rogue settlements euphemistically known as “illegal outposts” – since they were formally established in breach of Israeli law, although they enjoy broad government support and funding – contribute to this reality. These 100 or so outposts, established throughout the West Bank since the 1990s, have effectively taken over large swathes of land, expanding the scope of settlement control. This dispossession has been accompanied by violence towards Palestinian landowners that includes physical assaults, threats, attacks on shepherds and theft of land. Apart from very rare exceptions in which outposts were removed further to legal proceedings, virtually all outposts remain standing and are gradually gaining formal recognition as a substantial part of the settlement enterprise.

Violent actions of settlers against Palestinians are not exceptions to a rule. Rather, they form part of a broader strategy in which the state colludes, as it stands to benefit from the result. Over time, this unchecked violence is gradually driving Palestinians from more and more locations in the West Bank, making it easier for the state to take over land and resources.

Offline waldo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8848
Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #172 on: May 31, 2019, 07:58:27 pm »
Settler violence Backed by the State

Quote
Violence by settlers (and sometimes by other Israeli civilians) toward Palestinians has long since become part of daily life under occupation in the West Bank. These actions range from blocking roads, throwing stones at cars and houses, raiding villages and farmland, torching fields and olive groves, and damaging crops and property to physical assault, sometimes to the point of hurling Molotov cocktails or using live fire. Over the years, this widespread violence toward Palestinians has resulted in injuries to life and limb, as well as damage to property and land.

Under international law, Israel has a duty to protect Palestinians in the West Bank from this conduct. However, Israeli authorities routinely shirk this responsibility, even when the violent actions can be anticipated. Thousands of testimonies, videos and reports, as well as many years of close monitoring by B’Tselem and other organizations, reveal that Israeli security forces not only allow settlers to harm Palestinians and their property as a matter of course – they often provide the perpetrators escort and back-up. In some cases, they even join in on the attack. In other instances, security forces have prevented anticipated harm by removing the targeted Palestinians, rather than the Israeli assailants.

The law enforcement agencies, for their part, rarely make settlers face consequences for attacking Palestinians. In almost all cases, the investigations – if one was opened, in the first place – have not resulted in any action taken against the perpetrators. This undeclared policy of lenience toward settler violence aimed at Palestinians has been documented in numerous reports by human rights organizations, as well as in official state reports (such as the Karp Report of 1982 and the Shamgar Report of 1994).

In a ten-year review published in May 2015, human rights organization Yesh Din found that some 85% of investigations into such cases (including violence, arson, damage to property, mutilation of trees and takeover of land) ended with no further action taken, and that the odds of a police complaint filed by a Palestinian resulting in the conviction of an Israeli civilian were a mere 1.9%. Given the futility of this effort, many Palestinians choose to forgo filing a complaint altogether.

Since it was founded in 1989, B’Tselem has been documenting incidents of settler violence against Palestinians and advocating for security forces to fulfill their obligation to protect Palestinians and their property from such injury. For many years, B’Tselem has stressed the duty of Israeli authorities to make the necessary preparations, including allocating forces, to prevent attacks that can be predicted – especially when they are carried out in the open – and arrest the assailants. We have repeatedly called attention to the responsibility of the law enforcement agencies to quickly and efficiently investigate attacks after they take place. B’Tselem has provided the police and the military with documentation of such attacks, including video footage filmed by volunteers. We have also helped Palestinian victims file complaints with the police and have monitored the investigations – including appealing closed cases. After more than 25 years of this work, there is no escaping the conclusion that the authorities merely make a show of law enforcement in this context and that, with few exceptions, they have no interest in seriously investigating settler violence against Palestinians.

A stark example recurs every year during the olive harvest. After repeated settler attacks, the military forbade Palestinian farmers from entering their own land if it lies near a settlement – instead of protecting the farmers by enforcing the law on the settlers. In 2004, the heads of five Palestinian local councils petitioned Israel’s High Court of Justice (HCJ), demanding that the military allow them to access their lands and protect them from settler attacks during the olive harvest. The court accepted the petition about two years later, ruling that the military should not, in general, deny Palestinians access to their land in the name of protecting them. The justices also ruled that the security establishment must “give clear, unequivocal instructions to the forces operating in the field” and also “deploy forces to protect the property of the Palestinian inhabitants” (HCJ 9593/04 Murar et al. v. IDF Commander for Judea and Samaria et al.). As a result, the state created a “coordination system” for supposedly enabling Palestinians throughout the West Bank to access their land for several days, twice a year – during the harvest and plowing seasons. This requires prior coordination with the military, which assigns them a security detail.

In practice, the system does little to resolve this violent reality and is largely another empty show of law enforcement. First, it furthers the assumption that the solution lies with restricting the Palestinian victims, rather than the violent settlers. Second, it is relevant to two specific periods every year, leaving settlers free to roam and vandalize land and trees the rest of the time, while the Palestinian owners are barred access. Third, the military requires Palestinians to undergo such a complicated coordination process and meet so many requirements that, in many cases, attaining access is impossible.

Settler violence has a pervasive impact on life in the West Bank, creating a lingering sense of intimidation. Countless attacks have left their traumatic mark on individual Palestinians and on the collective memory. As a result, many Palestinians now avoid approaching “danger zones” near settlements. Landowners do not dare enter these areas without military escort or Israeli civilians accompanying them. As a result, in some plots, the yield has become so poor that the owners have given up trying to reach the land and tend it. This dynamic has created invisible walls throughout the West Bank, beyond which Palestinians know they face violence to the point of risking their lives.

The rogue settlements euphemistically known as “illegal outposts” – since they were formally established in breach of Israeli law, although they enjoy broad government support and funding – contribute to this reality. These 100 or so outposts, established throughout the West Bank since the 1990s, have effectively taken over large swathes of land, expanding the scope of settlement control. This dispossession has been accompanied by violence towards Palestinian landowners that includes physical assaults, threats, attacks on shepherds and theft of land. Apart from very rare exceptions in which outposts were removed further to legal proceedings, virtually all outposts remain standing and are gradually gaining formal recognition as a substantial part of the settlement enterprise.

Violent actions of settlers against Palestinians are not exceptions to a rule. Rather, they form part of a broader strategy in which the state colludes, as it stands to benefit from the result. Over time, this unchecked violence is gradually driving Palestinians from more and more locations in the West Bank, making it easier for the state to take over land and resources.

Offline waldo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8848
Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #173 on: May 31, 2019, 08:00:01 pm »
Settlements

Quote

From 1967 to the end of 2017, more than 200 Israeli settlements were established in the West Bank. They include:

    131 settlements officially recognized by the Israeli Ministry of the Interior;
    About 110 settlements built without official authorization but with governmental support and assistance (known as “illegal outposts”);
    Several settlement enclaves inside the city of Hebron;
    11 neighborhoods in the areas of the West Bank that Israel annexed to the municipal jurisdiction of Jerusalem in 1967, and several settlement enclaves within Palestinian neighborhoods in East Jerusalem.

Another 16 settlements that had been established in the Gaza Strip, and four in the northern West Bank, were dismantled in 2005 as part of the Disengagement Plan.

More than 620,000 Israeli citizens currently reside in settlements. Of these, about 209,270 live in the parts of the West Bank that Israel annexed to the municipal jurisdiction of Jerusalem (according to Jerusalem Institute for Policy Research figures from late 2016), and 413,400 live throughout the rest of the West Bank (according to Central Bureau of Statistics figures from late 2017).

The settlements are the single most important factor in shaping life in the West Bank. Their destructive impact on the human rights of Palestinians extends far beyond the thousands of hectares, including farmland and grazing areas, that Israel appropriated from Palestinians in order to build them. More land has been expropriated to pave hundreds of kilometers of roads for settler use only; roadblocks, checkpoints, and other measures that limit Palestinian movement only have been erected based on the location of settlements; Palestinian landowners have been effectively denied access to much of their farmland, both within settlements and outside them; and the winding route of the Separation Barrier, which severely violates the rights of Palestinians living near it, was established inside the West Bank in order to leave as many settlements as possible – and large tracts of land for expanding them – on the western side of the barrier.

All the settlement practices in the West Bank share the same objective, although those employed in the urban areas of Hebron and East Jerusalem – where Palestinians have also been dispossessed of their homes and of other structures – take a different form.

In the early years of the occupation, the main ploy that Israel used to take over land for building settlements was to seize the land “for military purposes”. Military seizure orders were issued for some 3,100 hectares of land, most of which were earmarked for building settlements. In June 1979, the military issued a seizure order for privately-owned land near Nablus, which was slated for establishing the settlement of Elon Moreh. Several Palestinians petitioned Israel’s High Court of Justice (HCJ), arguing that the seizure violated international law, since it served a civilian purpose of building a settlement rather than true military needs. The court had rejected this argument in previous petitions, accepting the state’s claim that settlements contribute to security.

In this case, however, top security officials stated that building a settlement at that location would serve no military purpose. Also, some of the settlers joined the proceedings as respondents, explaining to the court that it was their intention to settle in the area permanently, for religious and political reasons, rather than to promote security. Given these unique circumstances, the court could not rule that the establishment of the settlement would serve military needs – although it did not rule out such a possibility in general. The justices restricted their decision to the specific case of Elon Moreh, ruling that the land seizure was meant to serve a civilian rather than military purpose and therefore breached international law. The court did not completely deny the possibility of seizing private land for building settlements, but held that when the dominant reason for issuing a seizure order is the establishment of a civilian settlement rather than military considerations, the order is unlawful.

This ruling made it difficult for Israel to continue seizing Palestinian land as it had done until that point. Instead, it required the state to obtain agreement between top security officials on the military advantage of every planned settlement, and to ensure that the settlers kept their intentions to themselves. To circumvent this, the government announced that it would thereafter build settlements only on land that had been declared state land.

However, when the state sought such land, it discovered that only some 68,700 hectares of land were considered state land at the time, mostly in the Jordan Valley and in the Judean Desert. This frustrated the governmental plan to build settlements along the central mountain ridge of the West Bank. Therefore, the state came up with a new system for declaring state land.

This system was founded on rewriting legal provisions and applying a completely different approach to the Ottoman Land Code, which governs land ownership in the West Bank, than the standard interpretation applied until then. The new approach made it much easier to declare state land, even when the land in question was considered private or collective Palestinian property under British and later Jordanian rule. One method for achieving this was requiring Palestinians to regularly cultivate farmland as a prerequisite to acquiring ownership rights; another was to disregard the provisions of local law, which grants Palestinian communities collective rights to use grazing areas and other public land. By employing these new tactics, from 1979 to 2002 Israel declared more than 90,000 hectares of land as state land. There are now some 120,000 hectares of state land in Area C, constituting 36.5% of Area C and 22% of the entire West Bank. An additional 20,000 hectares of state land are located in areas A and B, where planning is in the hands of the Palestinian Authority.

A comparative survey carried out by B’Tselem in the area of Ramallah revealed massive differences between the amount of land that Jordan defined as government property in areas registered before the occupation, and the amount that Israel declared state land in areas that the Jordanians had not managed to register prior to 1967. The results of the survey indicate that a significant proportion of the land that Israel declared as state land is actually private Palestinian property that was taken from its lawful owners through legal maneuvering, in breach of both local and international law.

This process of land takeover also contravenes basic tenets of due process and natural justice. In many cases, the Palestinian residents were not aware that their land had been registered as state property and when they found out, it was too late to appeal. The burden of proof always lies with Palestinians claiming ownership; even if landowners did manage to prove their ownership over the land, in some cases it was registered state land based on the claim that it had been handed over to a settlement “in good faith”.

Even if all the declarations of state land were lawful, public land – including the land declared as government property prior to 1967 – is meant to serve the population of the occupied territory, i.e. the Palestinian public, not the State of Israel or its citizens. However, Israel prohibits Palestinian use of this land almost entirely and considers it Israeli property. In keeping with this policy, Israel has allocated to settlement vast tracts of this “state land”, stretching far beyond their built-up sections. The lands allocated to settlements have been declared closed military zones and are off limits to Palestinians, except by special permit. In contrast, Israeli citizens, Jews from around the world and tourists can enter them freely.

At present, settlements cover 53,813 hectares of land – almost 10% of the West Bank. Their regional councils control another 165,037 hectares, including vast open areas that have not been attached to any particular settlement. This brings the total area under the direct control of settlements to 40% of the West Bank, and 63% of Area C.

Along with this governmental land grab, settlers have exploited the forced separation between Palestinians and their land to build houses, outposts and roads, sow fields and groves, graze livestock and take over natural water sources – all outside the vast areas already allocated to the settlements. This is attended by routine violence against Palestinians. These actions play a major role in the implementation of Israel’s policy in the West Bank by complementing official measures. The settlers’ apparently independent actions serve as a privatized system for taking over land, allowing Israel to establish and expand entire settlement blocs through an unofficial sidetrack while formally disavowing these actions.

Unlike the restrictive planning policy enforced upon Palestinian communities, Israeli settlements are fully represented in the planning process, enjoying detailed outline plans and advanced infrastructure. Although the state uses the same professional and legal terms to refer to both Israeli and Palestinian construction in the West Bank with– such as building and planning laws, urban master plans, planning procedures and illegal construction – it applies them very differently in practice. When it comes to Israeli settlements, the state turns a blind eye and offers support and retroactive approval, all as part of an overarching policy to de-facto annex parts of the West Bank to Israel’s sovereign territory. Palestinian communities, on the other hand, are subjected to painstaking bureaucracy, stalled plans and widespread demolitions, in keeping with Israel’s policy to prevent Palestinian development in the West Bank and continue dispossessing Palestinians of their land.

The establishment of the settlements contravenes international humanitarian law (IHL), which states that an occupying power may not relocate its own citizens to the occupied territory or make permanent changes to that territory, unless these are needed for imperative military needs, in the narrow sense of the term, or undertaken for the benefit of the local population.

The existence of settlements also leads to the violation of many human rights of Palestinians, including the rights to property, equality, an adequate standard of living and freedom of movement. In addition, the radical changes that Israel has made to the map of the West Bank preclude any real possibility of establishing an independent, viable Palestinian state in fulfilment of the right to self-determination. Although the West Bank is not part of Israel's sovereign territory, Israeli has applied most of its domestic laws to the settlements and their residents. As a result, the settlers enjoy almost all the same privileges as citizens living within Israel. Meanwhile, Palestinians continue to live under martial law and are thereby systematically deprived of their rights and denied the ability to have any real impact on policymaking with respect to the territory in which they live. In creating this reality, Israel has formed a regime in which a person’s rights depend on his or her national identity.

Israel has refrained from formally annexing the West Bank (except in East Jerusalem). In practice, however, it treats the settlements established throughout Area C as extensions of its sovereign territory and has virtually eliminated the distinction for Israeli citizens – while concentrating the Palestinian population in 165 disconnected “islands” (Areas A and B). This double movement, of Israeli settlers taking over more and more West Bank land and Palestinians being pushed aside, has been a consistent mainstay of Israeli policy in the West Bank since 1967, with all Israeli legislative, legal, planning, funding and defense bodies working towards that end.

Offline waldo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8848
Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #174 on: May 31, 2019, 08:05:41 pm »
The Duty to End the Occupation

Quote
In June 2017, Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip reached the half-century mark, and entered its fifty-first year. A third, and even fourth, generation of Palestinians and Israelis have been born into this reality, and it is the only one they have ever known. It is a reality in which Israel holds sway over 13 million people living in the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, yet only eight million of them – those who are Israeli citizens, regardless of whether or not they live within the boundaries of the Green Line – participate in the political process that determines the future of this geographic area. The inherent features of this reality make it impossible to call Israel a democracy.

Israel captured the Gaza Strip and the West Bank in June 1967. It has maintained control – in one form or another – over these territories and their people ever since. For more than half a century, Israel has kept up a reality of dispossession, oppression and human rights abuse in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank:

In the Gaza Strip, which it controls from without, Israel applies a callous policy and assumes no responsibility for the devastating effects it has on the lives of the local residents. Israel denies Gaza residents any possibility of independent subsistence, yet is willing to meet only their barest needs, even on essentials such as water and electricity. This policy prevents the physical reconstruction in Gaza necessary following the devastation Israel wreaked there over the course of several rounds of combat, and also thwarts Gaza’s economic recovery after years of being under the Israeli-imposed blockade. Despite the dire situation in the Gaza Strip, and the projections that it will become unlivable in several years, Israel refuses to change its policies. No elaborate legal argument can obscure the reality of what is happening in Gaza: It is like living in a third-world country on the brink of collapse. This reality is not the result of a natural disaster. It is entirely man-made.

In the West Bank, Israel is implementing policies whose long-term objectives are plain to see. It is doing so both through its own direct control as well as via the Palestinian Authority. Israel’s conduct and the official positions expressed by increasing numbers of Israeli leaders confirm that it does not view the occupation as temporary. Instead, it treats the West Bank as if it were part of its sovereign territory: grabbing land, exploiting natural resources for its own needs and building permanent settlements designated for Israelis only. At the same time, for the past fifty years, Palestinian West Bank residents have been living under rigid military rule that primarily serves the interests of the State of Israel and Israeli settlers.

East Jerusalem, which is part of the occupied West Bank, was annexed by Israel in breach of international law. The annexation notwithstanding, Israel treats the Palestinian living in the city as unwanted immigrants and systematically applies policies designed to dispossess them of their homes and drive them from their city. Israeli officials deny state responsibility for this situation, and similarly deny responsibility for the violation of Palestinians’ human rights attendant on this reality. Instead, they pin these policies on the need to maintain Israel’s security interests. It is an attempt to put the onus for Israel’s continued control over the Palestinians – directly in the West Bank or indirectly in Gaza – largely on the Palestinians themselves. Security concerns, however, have very little to do with the policies Israel has been implementing in the territories under its control since 1967, and despite Israel’s persistent “public diplomacy”, or “hasbara” efforts, the facts are clear: Israel is the one who controls the lives of millions of Palestinians, dictating their daily lives and futures.

Israel could choose to end the occupation, lift the blockade on Gaza, and set millions of Palestinians free of its control. Israel could also choose to prolong the current state of affairs, relentlessly furthering the dispossession and oppression. It has chosen to do the latter. After more than fifty years, it is impossible to view this reality as temporary or to continue to believe that Israel has any intention of changing it. The political dynamics in Israel with respect to the Palestinian territories range from taking no notice of it – especially where the situation in Gaza and Areas A and B of the West Bank is concerned – to attempts to further the dispossession of Palestinians, mostly in East Jerusalem and in Area C.

Nor does the legal sphere offer much hope for a solution. While many Israeli authorities combine to facilitate control over Palestinians, it is the legal system’s readiness to give a legal stamp of approval to the overwhelming denial of Palestinian rights that makes it possible. Home demolitions, administrative detention, expulsion of communities, torture, road closures and denial of the right to compensation for harm caused by security forces are only some of the measures sanctioned by Israel’s High Court of Justice and consistently defended by the State Attorney’s Office. Israel’s legal system declared its doors open to Palestinians for the express purpose of safeguarding their rights. But lofty sentiments expressed in grand phrases are one thing. Reality is quite another. In practice, Israel’s legal system has become a key player in facilitating and approving control over the Palestinians.

On an international level, contrary to Israel’s claims and despite states’ international responsibilities for human rights, Israel receives wide international support and very little has been done to challenge its policies. Round after round of negotiations has failed to advance the realization of Palestinians’ rights. The Oslo Accords ultimately even made matters worse in terms of the denial of rights, merely serving to give Israel more time – two decades of it – to promote its own interests.

The current situation is difficult, but a realistic assessment must take into account what the future holds. Israel’s goals have been clearly spelled out: Further entrenching its control and promoting its interests while establishing ever more facts on the ground; continuing to control millions of Palestinian subjects bereft of rights; and weakening the resistance, both in Israel and around the world, to the ongoing occupation. And all the while seeking to minimize the diplomatic price that ought to be exacted for such violent, illegal and immoral policies.

Faced with this bleak future, B’Tselem is fighting for a better future, one predicated on human rights, democracy, freedom and equality. All the people living on the bit of land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River have both individual and collective rights, including the right to self-determination. There are several political scenarios that could bring about a future that is based on the realization of these rights. It is not for B’Tselem to say which is scenario is best. One thing is clear though, carrying on with the occupation is not an option.

The occupation must end. Israel’s continued control over millions of people, whose lives are subject to its wants and needs – is entirely unjustifiable, inexcusable and unacceptable. A continuation of the situation wrongly called the “status quo” ensures one thing, and one thing only, for whoever lives on this piece of land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean: a continued downward spiral into an inherently violent, unjust and hopeless reality. Unless a nonviolent way out of the current reality is found, the violence of the past half century – both organized and spontaneous – might be just a preview of much more to come. The effort to create a different future for this piece of land is not just an urgent moral imperative; it is a matter of life and death.

Offline waldo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8848
Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #175 on: May 31, 2019, 08:17:17 pm »
Attacks by Israeli settlers surge as West Bank tensions boil

Quote
DEIR DIBWAN, West Bank — Palestinians in this town woke one morning last month to find their mosque vandalized, with a Star of David painted on the exterior alongside Hebrew graffiti accusing it of preaching “incitement.”

“We are at an alarming point,” said Barakat Mahmoud, the mosque’s imam. “We’ve never had direct confrontation with the settlers in this town.”

The incident was one in a recent spate of attacks blamed on Israeli settlers that officials on both sides of the conflict say are spiking. Israel’s security agency, Shin Bet, documented 295 of what it calls “Jewish terror” incidents last year, a 40 percent increase.

Although no Israeli government figures were available for January, the United Nations had recorded at least 30 incidents this year in which Israeli settlers were accused of causing casualties or damaging property, with a total of 14 Palestinians injured and one killed.

The most serious incident took place in January near the rural West Bank village of al-Mughayyir, when a Palestinian was shot dead, allegedly by settlers belonging to a volunteer security team for the nearby Israeli settlements. According to the United Nations, nine other Palestinians suffered gunshot wounds when the settlers opened fire during a confrontation on the outskirts of the village.

Israeli monitoring groups say the surge in settler violence, in part, reflects a lack of Israeli law enforcement and a response to a rash of particularly distressing attacks by Palestinians against Israelis.

While the number of Palestinian attacks in the West Bank dropped last year, their severity appeared to increase. According to Shin Bet figures, six civilians and five soldiers were killed. The agency said there were 1,153 Palestinian “terror” incidents in the West Bank, a figure that includes stone-throwing. 

Especially upsetting for many Israelis was the death of a baby boy who was born prematurely after his pregnant Israeli mother was injured in a December drive-by shooting near the settlement of Ofra, one of several such attacks. The recent **** and slaying of a 19-year-old girl from another West Bank settlement as she walked in woods in Jerusalem has shocked many Israelis and prompted calls for revenge from the extreme right.

Such incidents can trigger what are known as “price tag” attacks, a name originally given to vandalism and violence carried out by Jewish extremists against the Palestinian community and sometimes the Israeli security forces in response to violence or punitive action against settlements or settlers. Now, the phrase refers more generally to reprisals against Palestinian communities.

The United Nations and other organizations that track violence by the settlers have expressed alarm about the increase of Israeli attacks in the West Bank, which has been occupied by Israel since the 1967 war. Some 450,000 Israelis live in settlements deemed illegal by most of the international community.

Previous U.S. administrations criticized the expansion of Jewish settlements in the West Bank, saying they were an obstacle to peace. But that position has changed during the Trump administration. David M. Friedman, the U.S. ambassador to Israel, has said he sees settlements as part of Israel.

A more sympathetic U.S. policy toward settlements may have emboldened the extremist youths who carry out reprisal attacks, according to Lior Amihai, executive director of Yesh Din, an Israeli human rights group that tracks abuses against Palestinians in the West Bank.

“Among that settler ideology, there are people that look and say there is no reason why anyone should stop us from meeting our political aspirations,” Amihai said. “There is a right-wing government in Israel and a friend in the White House.”

“When they don’t meet them, they are frustrated,” he said, noting the existence of right-wing groups that use attacks to advance their political interests.

But, he added, attacks may also be increasing because Israeli authorities are turning a blind eye.

In 2016 and 2017, settler violence had dropped sharply, which some observers attributed to a crackdown by Israeli authorities. 

After a 2015 arson attack in the village of Duma that killed a Palestinian couple and their 18-month-old child and was blamed on Jewish extremists, the Israeli army used administrative orders to ban those involved in such violent activities from entering the West Bank or detain them without due process. 

Trials are rare, but last month, a 16-year-old Israeli student at a West Bank religious school was indicted in the death of a Palestinian mother of nine who died after a rock hit her while she was driving. The teenager’s DNA was found on the rock. Four others arrested in the case have been released for lack of evidence.

An Israeli army official who declined to be named, in line with Israeli military protocol, said that most attacks by settlers are against property and that only rarely are people hurt. He said it is “simply not true” that the army does not intervene to protect Palestinians.

Yizrael Gantz, a settler leader in the West Bank, sought to downplay the extent of the problem, saying the violence is perpetrated by a small group of troubled youths.
'Things got out of control'

It is in the olive groves, fields and hilltops surrounding Arab villages that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is fought day by day. The incident last month in al-Mughayyir is an example of how easy it is for events to spiral out of control.

Awad Naasam, a resident of the village, said he was spraying pesticides around his olive trees just after 2 p.m. when about 15 settlers wearing balaclavas tried to steal his tractor and then, when it got stuck, smashed it with iron bars. His cousin, who jointly owns the land, called the Israeli district office that deals with security coordination between Israelis and Palestinians for help. Naasam and his cousin say they were too scared to retaliate against their attackers.

But about 3 p.m., the volunteer security detail for the nearby Israeli settlements said it received a call from a young Israeli near al-Mughayyir in distress, saying he had been stabbed.

“We don’t know if the stabbing of the youth was connected to the tractor. All we know is, from a security perspective, that we were alerted and things got out of control,” said Moshe Tamir, the head of 49 “fast response” teams for settlements in the area. The teams include 2,000 armed volunteers, among them many retired army combat soldiers.

Tamir said his volunteers advanced down the hillside toward the village, concerned that Israelis had been kidnapped.

Al-Mughayyir’s mosque announced over its loudspeakers that settlers were “attacking,” and hundreds of villagers headed to the outskirts of town, throwing stones and using slingshots, villagers recalled. “We were afraid they were going to burn our houses,” a 55-year-old resident said.

The settlement security team opened fire with live ammunition, and Hamdi Nassan, 38, was shot dead. Several others were wounded, including Abdel Abu Alya, who said he was shot in the shoulder.

Members of the settlement security team later said they felt threatened.

Palestinians said the Israeli army did not intervene to stop the settlers. The army said it was investigating the incident.

Gantz, who heads the Binyamin regional council covering several dozen West Bank settlements north of Jerusalem, blamed the Israeli violence on a group of about 20 vagrant troublemakers who he said are estranged from their families and live in caves.

He said they are violent because of their emotional needs. “They want someone that will take care of them,” he said.

The Israeli human rights group B’Tselem stresses that the activity goes beyond a few “rotten apples” and says the Israeli government ignores extremist violence because it helps settlers expand their West Bank presence.

When Gantz met with an Israeli army division commander just before the al-Mughayyir incident, the settler leader said, he could “smell” that a “bad period” was on its way because the settlers were upset over Palestinian attacks.

“We had five terror attacks here in a small area,” he said, adding that the local settlers’ sense of “self-security” had been dented. “I can’t predict what someone will do when he’s afraid. Now everything is more sensitive,” he said.

Talk of retaliation for Palestinian violence is in the air.

At a demonstration in the West Bank city of Hebron last month, Rabbi Ariel Levy called for reprisals in response to the **** and slaying of 19-year-old Ori Ansbacher, allegedly by one of the city’s Arab residents. In comments published by the extreme right-wing website Jewish Voice, Levy urged, “Real revenge, not of individuals but of the entire public.”

Offline waldo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8848
Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #176 on: May 31, 2019, 08:22:48 pm »
As West Bank Violence Surges, Israel Is Silent on Attacks by Jews

Quote
By Isabel Kershner

    Feb. 2, 2019

AL MUGHAYIR, West Bank — A gang of a dozen or so armed Jewish settlers descended from a hilltop outpost to the Palestinian village below and opened fire, witnesses said. Israeli soldiers arrived, and instead of stopping the settlers, the witnesses said, they either stood by or clashed with the villagers.

In the melee, Hamdy Naasan, 38, a Palestinian father of four, was shot and killed.

The killing last Saturday was the latest in a wave of settler violence. Attacks by settlers on Palestinians, their property and Israeli security forces increased by 50 percent last year and have threatened to ignite the West Bank, Israeli security officials say.

Days earlier, the Israeli authorities charged a 16-year-old yeshiva student from another Jewish settlement with manslaughter and terrorism, accusing him of hurling a four-pound rock that killed Aisha al-Rabi, a Palestinian mother of eight, one night in October as she rode in her family car along a nearby highway.

While Palestinian and United Nations officials have condemned the violence — Nickolay E. Mladenov, the United Nations envoy to the Middle East, described the shooting in Al Mughayir as “shocking and unacceptable” — Israel’s right-wing government has remained conspicuously silent, wary of alienating settlers and other potential supporters in an election year.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who is seeking a fifth term, is vying with other right-wing rivals for the settlers’ support. He is facing bribery investigations and his strongest political challenge in years.

“Thou shalt not murder?” Tamar Zandberg, leader of the left-wing party Meretz, wrote in a Facebook post, noting the resounding lack of condemnation from government officials. “Silence. Everyone sees the election on the horizon, and the settler lobby is stronger than any moral standard.”

By contrast, after a Palestinian home in the village of Duma was firebombed in 2015, killing a toddler and his parents, Mr. Netanyahu and right-wing leaders issued strong condemnations and said Jewish terrorism would not be tolerated.

This time the loudest voices have risen to the defense of the Jewish suspects. Israel’s domestic security agency, the Shin Bet, has found itself on the defensive, accused by right-wing organizations of trampling on the rights of those suspected in the stoning.

Honenu, a right-wing legal aid organization, denounced the fact that the five youths initially detained in the woman’s attack had been denied access to legal counsel for days under court-approved counterterrorism laws. About 100 rabbis, including prominent voices in the religious Zionist and settler establishment, signed an open letter in support of the youths.

The justice minister, Ayelet Shaked, called the mother of one of the detainees, telling her to “be strong” and saying she had discussed his case with the state prosecutor. One legislator from the governing Likud party compared the Shin Bet to the K.G.B. Four of the youths were ultimately released.

Mr. Netanyahu rebuffed the attacks on Shin Bet, praising its efforts to thwart Palestinian terrorism, but did not address the settler violence.

For over a decade, radical young settlers known as the hilltop youth have practiced the doctrine known as “Price Tag,” which calls for exacting a price through violence or vandalism in revenge for Palestinian attacks on Jews or for army or police moves against rogue settlement activity.

A week before the stoning attack, a Palestinian gunman fatally shot two Israeli workers in an Israeli-run factory in the West Bank. In December, two Palestinian attacks on a West Bank road killed two Israeli soldiers and critically wounded a third soldier and a pregnant woman. Her baby was delivered early and died three days later.

Violence is endemic around settlements deep in the West Bank, and Jewish attacks often follow Palestinian ones, said Shlomo Fischer, an expert in radical religious Zionism at the Jewish People Policy Institute in Jerusalem. “The right is tending to view this in terms of a vendetta,” he said.

Security officials partly attribute the surge in settler violence to the recent lifting of restrictions from some main activists.

The authorities had imposed antiterrorism measures after the 2015 Duma attack and the subsequent exposure of a shadowy militant network known as “the Revolt.” The group seeks the collapse of the state of Israel and its replacement with a Jewish kingdom based on religious law.

The extraordinary steps included administrative detentions and orders keeping key radicals out of the West Bank. Those temporary orders have now run out.

The Shin Bet pointed to links between the yeshiva, or religious school, attended by the suspect in the stoning case and the kind of anti-Zionist, messianic ideology behind the Revolt. An Israeli flag scrawled with “death to the Zionists” and a swastika was found in a yeshiva dorm.

Some of the rabbis teaching at the yeshiva, Pri Haaretz, are associated with the extremist margins of the settlement movement. One of the yeshiva’s founding directors, a senior officer in Israel’s military reserves, was suspected of killing a Palestinian man in disputed circumstances in late 2017.

The links became apparent the morning after the killing of Ms. al-Rabi, when a car set out from the settlement of Yitzhar to coach the students in how to deal with Shin Bet interrogations. The occupants included Meir Ettinger, the alleged leader of the Revolt and a grandson of Meir Kahane, the slain American-Israeli rabbi considered the father of far-right Jewish militancy, and Akiva HaCohen, considered one of the architects of the Price Tag policy.

Pri Haaretz sits in a scruffy compound at the entrance of the settlement of Rehelim, a small community with neat rows of houses and a boutique winery.

On a recent weekday, chickens scratched around in the dirt outside a dozen or so trailers housing classrooms and living quarters. Pupils sported the flowing side-locks associated with the hilltop youth. Two severed goats’ heads were impaled on a chain-link fence, gruesome trophies from an apparent practice session in ritual slaughter.

Some residents of Rehelim now want to expel Pri Haaretz from the settlement. One said the school’s ideology was too extreme and was bound to cause trouble. Yeshiva leaders refused to comment.

The suspect whose DNA was found on the rock denied any involvement, according to his lawyers. He has not been publicly identified because he is a minor. One rabbi provided law enforcement with an apparent alibi, declaring that he had been eating and singing with the pupils at the yeshiva, including, to the best of his memory, the one who was later charged, till midnight.

Recounting the events of that night in an interview, Ms. al-Rabi’s widower, Yacoub, described how the stone smashed through the front windshield, striking his wife in the head and causing her brains and blood to spill out “like a waterfall.” She died on the spot.

Mr. al-Rabi said it was incomprehensible that only one person had been charged in her death since many heavy stones were thrown at the car and it was “impossible that only one person was throwing them all.”

The Israeli military and police are now investigating the death of Mr. Naasan.

The settlers say the clash started with an attack on a Jewish teenager who was staying in the settler outpost of Adei Ad over the Sabbath. In a recorded statement, the teenager said he had walked out of Adei Ad to spend some time alone, was accosted by Palestinians, managed to get away, realized his arm was bleeding and ran back to the outpost for help.

Adei Ad representatives initially put out a contradictory statement saying that a local armed response force had set out to rescue a group of hikers and to rule out a report that one was missing, and that it had also been chasing the assailants. They said the force fired in the air after being ambushed by hundreds of violent Palestinians and was joined by soldiers who also opened fire.

In a later statement, they said the response team had operated together with the soldiers “according to the law.”

But residents of Al Mughayir said armed settlers first came down the hill and vandalized a tractor, smashing its windows and puncturing its tires. Farmers ran to ask some soldiers stationed nearby for help, but the soldiers told them to call the police.

Mr. Naasan’s cousin, Yasser Naasan, 34, said he went to check on the tractor but more settlers arrived, fired at him and chased him back to the village.

The mosque loudspeakers called on residents to come out and defend their homes. Palestinians threw stones. Witnesses said soldiers arrived and fired tear gas, stun grenades, rubber bullets and possibly live bullets in the air while settlers shot live ammunition. One resident showed photographs on his cellphone of armed settlers standing shoulder to shoulder with soldiers, and some settlers wearing masks.

“I witnessed a battlefield,” said Farraj Naasan, 53, an uncle of Hamdy Naasan. “There was massive shooting. Ta-ta-ta. I saw three Israeli soldiers firing into the air and three settlers firing directly at people.”

Hamdy Naasan worked in construction and spent seven years in an Israeli prison for security offenses. He was released in 2008. Last Saturday, his uncle said, he was helping evacuate the wounded.

“He carried the first and the second,” he said. “When he went up to get more of the wounded, he was shot.”

Mr. Naasan fell about 50 yards from the last home on the edge of the village. Another witness, Samir Abu Alia, 53, said villagers had to wait 20 minutes, until the shooting subsided, to retrieve his body.

Offline Rue

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 835
  • The beast feeds on fear - I feast on the beast.
  • Location: inside a matrix
Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #177 on: May 31, 2019, 08:24:10 pm »
Lol
Ya, It's long but mine was a bit long too, so I'm not complaining about that.
And It's more sensible than previous.
I'll take me some time to figure out how to respond concisely so ... leaving that to later.

As you can see Granny Waldo and Omni show you the same contempt they do anyone else on this forum. They ignore you and  hijack your thread because they feel it more important to try bait me.  I tried my best to respond directly to your points. This wasn't abut the length of my response, its about two posters who don't want me to respond to you. Its never been about the length its been about trying to control people they don't agree with. I have sent the moderator notification of their trolling and I am sorry it happened but might I suggest you ignore them as they did you.

Please feel free to not respond to any of my points if you do not want to. I only responded out of respect to you. Please however don't let them ignore your right to debate with me. If you want I will be pleased to respond further. If you don't I won't. Eventually their trolling will be dealt with if not by the moderator by everyone ignoring them.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 08:26:53 pm by Rue »
You have me mistaken with an eagle. I only come to eat your carcass.

Offline waldo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8848
Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #178 on: May 31, 2019, 08:33:34 pm »
you can't get away with your shyte on the 'other board'... you can't post your mega-long 1500-3000+ "word-bombs" on the 'other board'... you can't ply your purposely distracting GishGallop disruption routine on the 'other board'..... SO WHY BRING IT HERE?

Offline JMT

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3462
  • Location: Waterhen, Manitoba
Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #179 on: May 31, 2019, 08:34:16 pm »
I've already talked to everyone about the world counter - just don't.
Like Like x 2 Love Love x 2 View List