Author Topic: International Jewish Voices  (Read 4704 times)

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Offline waldo

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #150 on: May 27, 2019, 01:13:44 pm »
Appreciate the arguments, but these are all pro-Jewish claims from a pro-Jewish source, not trying to be objective.

of course; member Rue is anything but unbiased... all his "sources" are pro-Jewish/Israeli. Independent sources don't lend themselves to GishGallop!
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Offline Granny

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #151 on: May 27, 2019, 01:28:49 pm »
Appreciate the arguments, but these are all pro-Jewish claims from a pro-Jewish source, not trying to be objective.
Whoa!!
Words are important. Choose them carefully!
My purpose in this thread is to respect that there is not one "Jewish" position. One "source" does not represent all Jewish people, nor even all Israeli people. Israelis and Jewish people everywhere are as politically divided as Canadians are.

I have to call both you and waldo on this stereotyping.
Big error.
Do you understand?
Would you both please restate your posts to avoid the stereotyping and dismissing all 'pro-Jewish sources'?

You are both really creeping me out. (((

Another purpose of this thread is to sort out appropriate ways and language to have the conversation, so that anyone reading or participating understands different points of views without being put off by careless wording that can be attacked or dismissed as anti-Semitism.
That stops the conversation in its tracks, and cannot be tolerated.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 01:35:29 pm by Granny »

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #152 on: May 27, 2019, 01:43:02 pm »
Whoa!!
Words are important. Choose them carefully!
My purpose in this thread is to respect that there is not one "Jewish" position. One "source" does not represent all Jewish people, nor even all Israeli people. Israelis and Jewish people everywhere are as politically divided as Canadians are.

I have to call both you and waldo on this stereotyping.
Big error.
Do you understand?
Would you both please restate your posts to avoid the stereotyping and dismissing all 'pro-Jewish sources'?

You are both really creeping me out. (((

Another purpose of this thread is to sort out appropriate ways and language to have the conversation, so that anyone reading or participating understands different points of views without being put off by careless wording that can be attacked or dismissed as anti-Semitism.
That stops the conversation in its tracks, and cannot be tolerated.

I'm certainly not trying to be anti-semitic. Rue knows that.  If anyone would interpret that in my post, well it's incorrect, i'm all for helpful dialogue but i'm also not going to coddle my posts for any hyper-sensitive folk out there who might misinterpret me.

I also get your post about stereotyping sides.  I don't really know how to word my post another way. Suggestions are welcomed.  Well i changed it to "pro-Israel", that's as good as i can think of.
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Offline ?Impact

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #153 on: May 27, 2019, 04:55:51 pm »
There are no good or bad guys. Most Israelis if you take a poll still want a two state solution while most Palestinians when polled do not.

It would be interesting to see if Israelis and Palestinians agree on the definition of a two state solution.

Offline Granny

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #154 on: May 27, 2019, 06:35:59 pm »
I'm certainly not trying to be anti-semitic. Rue knows that.  If anyone would interpret that in my post, well it's incorrect, i'm all for helpful dialogue but i'm also not going to coddle my posts for any hyper-sensitive folk out there who might misinterpret me.

I also get your post about stereotyping sides.  I don't really know how to word my post another way. Suggestions are welcomed.  Well i changed it to "pro-Israel", that's as good as i can think of.

It's complicated and I'm not sure how to word it either but ...
There are Israelis who do not agree with Netanyahu's  perpetual war against Palestinians. (See my post #146 on previous page.) I'd like their views to be respected and not lumped into a 'pro or anti-Israel' stance either. Israelis are not united in one view (nor are Canadians).

I'd say Rue is an apologist for right wing Israeli actions, pro-Netanyahu, apparently since he defends current violence against Palestinians at great length, as somehow historically justified - 'They deserve it' - according to his posts.
He certainly does not represent all Israelis nor all Jews, and they shouldn't be lumped in with his views.





Offline Granny

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #155 on: May 27, 2019, 06:47:38 pm »
of course; member Rue is anything but unbiased... all his "sources" are pro-Jewish/Israeli. Independent sources don't lend themselves to GishGallop!
Waldo, please don't smear all Jews or Israelis as if they share Rue's views:
They don't.
Rue justifies the violent actions of Netanyahu's hard line right wing regime.
Not all Israelis nor all Jews agree.

In this thread I'm interested in highlighting the views and actions of Israelis and Jews who would prefer more diplomacy and less violence.
(See my post #146 re the Israeli opposition to Netanyahu.)

There is reason for hope that more moderate Jews and Israelis can promote peaceful resolutions. I want to support that. They are very brave people.

« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 06:53:55 pm by Granny »

Offline Pinus or Vid or...?????

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #156 on: May 27, 2019, 08:56:41 pm »
Waldo, please don't smear all Jews or Israelis as if they share Rue's views:
They don't.
Rue justifies the violent actions of Netanyahu's hard line right wing regime.
Not all Israelis nor all Jews agree.

In this thread I'm interested in highlighting the views and actions of Israelis and Jews who would prefer more diplomacy and less violence.
(See my post #146 re the Israeli opposition to Netanyahu.)

There is reason for hope that more moderate Jews and Israelis can promote peaceful resolutions. I want to support that. They are very brave people.

I am sure most Jews in Isreal desire peace.  However, it's mainly right-wing or Orthodox Jews who are settling in the West Bank.  One main omission to this argument is the role of Evangelical Christians in North America, who contribute billions to pro-Israeli organizations, and are at times, more militant than Jews themselves.

Netanyahu is a right-wing bigot, and hopefully the Israelis vote him out of office.  Just to be clear, I agree that Israel is committing Human Rights violations in the Occupied Territories.  I'm mainly playing "Devil's Advocate" by pointing out that this kind of oppression that Israel is guilty of, has happened in nearly every corner of the World.  I simply do not understand why Jews and Israel are always singled out, considering China, Russia, and the USA, and even Canada are guilty of similar, if not worse Human Rights violations.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 08:59:24 pm by Vid »
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Offline Granny

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #157 on: May 27, 2019, 11:29:51 pm »
I am sure most Jews in Isreal desire peace.  However, it's mainly right-wing or Orthodox Jews who are settling in the West Bank.
I have also heard/read of Orthodox Jews who oppose Israel's treatment of Palestinians. Are they different groups?

 
Quote
One main omission to this argument is the role of Evangelical Christians in North America, who contribute billions to pro-Israeli organizations, and are at times, more militant than Jews themselves.
True. And not for a nice reason.
It's because when the Messiah comes (first time for Jews, second time for Christians), all the Jews will then be followers of the new Christ, thus Christian converts, and then the 'end times', the rapture and more stupid stuff.
Ugly stupid delusional nonsense.
Evangelicals are all about converting everyone to their way.
Not nice. Anti-Judaism, possibly anti-Semitic.
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Netanyahu is a right-wing bigot, and hopefully the Israelis vote him out of office.
Unfortunately, not yet.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/27/netanyahu-threatens-to-call-fresh-election-as-coalition-talks-falter
Quote
Just to be clear, I agree that Israel is committing Human Rights violations in the Occupied Territories.

We can agree on that generic terminology.
Quote
I'm mainly playing "Devil's Advocate" by pointing out that this kind of oppression that Israel is guilty of, has happened in nearly every corner of the World.  I simply do not understand why Jews and Israel are always singled out, considering China, Russia, and the USA, and even Canada are guilty of similar, if not worse Human Rights violations.
Canada (government, to give industry "certainty") is still trying to complete it's genocide against Indigenous Peoples, trying to stealthily legislate them out of existence. I'm aware of that, and active in opposing that ... and it was there that I met a young Palestinian woman ... and then the bombing of Gaza ... and 8 brave and well-known Jewish Canadian women occupied the Israeli Consulate in Toronto in protest ...
So I learned that being opposed to Israel's actions doesn't make you an antiSemite.

Why Israel and not others?
Because of what I learned, I suppose.
Because family members fought WWII "against discrimination". Because as a child, a land of their own seemed like a really good thing for survivors of the horrors of the Holocaust. Though I was told "but there are other people already living there", I so hoped they would get along, be happy. I was just a kid, but the memory of that conversation, that hope, lingered.
Israel is still very personal to all who had people close to them who fought that war. We wanted Jews to have a safe place of their own. We wanted it to work.
But turning on other people, violating their human rights ... ??? That's become abhorrent.

Still learning.


Offline Pinus or Vid or...?????

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #158 on: May 28, 2019, 12:54:46 am »
I have also heard/read of Orthodox Jews who oppose Israel's treatment of Palestinians. Are they different groups?

Most Orthodox Jews, not all. I've heard that a fair amount of Israelis want peace, and are against activities pertaining to the Occupied Territories, but the Government is being largely influenced by North American Jews and Christians who supply money to political parties (i.e. Likud), to pressure them to expand the settlements in the West Bank.


Quote
We can agree on that generic terminology.Canada (government, to give industry "certainty") is still trying to complete it's genocide against Indigenous Peoples, trying to stealthily legislate them out of existence.

That is not even remotely correct. Canada has officially apologized for the treatment of our Indigenous peoples, and are trying to make financial amends with the Natives for 20+ years.

Quote
Why Israel and not others?
Because of what I learned, I suppose.
Because family members fought WWII "against discrimination". Because as a child, a land of their own seemed like a really good thing for survivors of the horrors of the Holocaust. Though I was told "but there are other people already living there", I so hoped they would get along, be happy. I was just a kid, but the memory of that conversation, that hope, lingered.


Israel is still very personal to all who had people close to them who fought that war. We wanted Jews to have a safe place of their own. We wanted it to work.
 

Still learning.

As a direct result of the Shoah, opposition to a Jewish homeland was a very unpopular position after 1945.  Once the British were victorious over the Ottomans, and took control of several areas of the Middle East, they promised the land of Palestine to the Jews in the Balfour Declaration of 1917.  The British reneged on this promise with the White Paper shortly before the start of World War 2, afraid that if the stuck to their guns, the Arabs would align themselves with the Germans.

After WW2, it was a different story, as Britain could not afford to oversee most of it's former colonies, as the war had depleted it economically. They relinquished all of South Asia, many parts of Africa and the Middle East.

Quote
But turning on other people, violating their human rights ... ??? That's become abhorrent.

It's happening pretty much in every corner of the Earth.  From Russia (the Crimea), China (Tibet), United States (too numerous to mention), many African nations, Southeast Asia, and arguably some parts of Latin America.  Unfortunately, it will almost certainly get worse with the Human population increasing by nearly 100 million per year, and the negative effects of Global Warming, making populated areas uninhabitable to human beings,

The problem with the troubles of the Holy Land, is it would take ages to explain.  When one group of people (Arabs) declare war or hostilities on a much stronger ethnic group (Jews and Israel), it will usually does not end well.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 01:10:13 am by Vid »
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Offline Granny

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #159 on: May 28, 2019, 02:14:44 am »
Most Orthodox Jews, not all. I've heard that a fair amount of Israelis want peace, and are against activities pertaining to the Occupied Territories, but the Government is being largely influenced by North American Jews and Christians who supply money to political parties (i.e. Likud), to pressure them to expand the settlements in the West Bank.
What's it to them? Oh ... the river to the sea... the prophesy ... converting all the Jews and then the rapture stuff.
Sick sh!t, imo.

Quote
That is not even remotely correct. Canada has officially apologized for the treatment of our Indigenous peoples, and are trying to make financial amends with the Natives for 20+ years.
https://aptnnews.ca/2019/05/27/the-white-paper-2-0-needs-to-be-stopped-say-indigenous-leaders/
Legislated genocide. All rights settled for peanuts and curtailed.
Because industry needs "certainty".
Because White Paper 1, Pierre Trudeau 1969, Failed.

Quote
As a direct result of the Shoah, opposition to a Jewish homeland was a very unpopular position after 1945.  Once the British were victorious over the Ottomans, and took control of several areas of the Middle East, they promised the land of Palestine to the Jews in the Balfour Declaration of 1917.  The British reneged on this promise with the White Paper shortly before the start of World War 2, afraid that if the stuck to their guns, the Arabs would align themselves with the Germans.

After WW2, it was a different story, as Britain could not afford to oversee most of it's former colonies, as the war had depleted it economically. They relinquished all of South Asia, many parts of Africa and the Middle East.

It's happening pretty much in every corner of the Earth.  From Russia (the Crimea), China (Tibet), United States (too numerous to mention), many African nations, Southeast Asia, and arguably some parts of Latin America.  Unfortunately, it will almost certainly get worse with the Human population increasing by nearly 100 million per year, and the negative effects of Global Warming, making populated areas uninhabitable to human beings,

The problem with the troubles of the Holy Land, is it would take ages to explain.  When one group of people (Arabs) declare war or hostilities on a much stronger ethnic group (Jews and Israel), it will usually does not end well.

That's ominous.

I'm glad there are people making efforts to take a more positive approach. I'm interested in that.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 02:36:06 am by Granny »

Offline Pinus or Vid or...?????

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #160 on: May 28, 2019, 02:22:12 am »
I admire your optimism, Granny.

However, I am cynical. Groups have been fighting for control of the Holy Land for thousands of years. I cannot see an end in sight to this conflict.  At least not in my lifetime. 
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #161 on: May 28, 2019, 04:18:34 am »
Most Orthodox Jews, not all. I've heard that a fair amount of Israelis want peace, and are against activities pertaining to the Occupied Territories, but the Government is being largely influenced by North American Jews and Christians who supply money to political parties (i.e. Likud), to pressure them to expand the settlements in the West Bank.

A lot of non-Jews are naive to this kind of stuff, but when they point it out they're called anti-semites.
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Offline Granny

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #162 on: May 28, 2019, 10:25:39 am »
A lot of non-Jews are naive to this kind of stuff, but when they point it out they're called anti-semites.
The right-wing government of Netanyahu (and his suoporters ) interprets any questioning of Israel's actions as anti-Semitism. That's a political ploy  repeated ad nauseam around the world in internet forums and elsewhere, to squash any criticism of Netanyahu's violent regime, and especially to squash the Boycott, Divest and Sanction movement that was having an effect on Israel. In Canada, Trudeau was convinced (malleable, excitable and corruptible as he is), and the Liberals supported a Conservative motion (arising possibly from the evangelical element) to "condemn" any organizations, groups or individuals in Canada promoting BDS.
Trudeau:
We need to understand, as well, that anti-Semitism has also manifested itself not just as in targeting of individuals but it is also targeting a new condemnation or an anti-Semitism against the very state of Israel," he said.
The prime minister added that Canada must be very careful "not to sanction this new frame around anti-Semitism and undue criticism of Israel."

To support his case, Trudeau pointed to the so-called "Three Ds" test for separating criticism of the Jewish state and anti-Semitism: demonization, double standards, and delegitimization of Israel.

When you have movements like BDS that single out Israel, that seek to delegitimize and in some cases demonize, when you have students on campus dealing with things like Israel apartheid weeks that make them fearful of actually attending campus events because of their religion in Canada, we have to recognize that there are things that aren't acceptable, not because of foreign policy concerns but because of Canadian values," Trudeau said.


That's our current context in Canada, all-party support to "condemn" us (whatever that means) for refusing to buy Israeli goods and for encouraging others to do so as well.
Apparently no 3D's test required for BDS, considered intrinsically "demonization, double standards, and delegitimization of Israel." (Exactly the verbal hammers used on internet forums to squash criticism.)

I don't agree. Criticizing the actions of Netanyahu's regime against Palestinians does not only arise from antiSemitism, but from legitimate concern about violations of Palestinian human rights.
The real irony is that there is criticism of Netanyahu's regime and participation in BDS among Jewish Canadians too, )and support for diplomacy over violence among Israelis.) NetanyahuTrudeau's pronouncement that effectively curtails Canadians' freedom of expression (participation in BDS) curtails the freedom of expression of centre-left Jewish Canadians. I don't think they act from anti-Semitism, though they do get attacked as 'not real Jews' or 'the wrong kind of Jews' by the long arm of the right wing Netanyahu regime that reaches into every Jewish community internationally.

So that should be a clue ... that Trudeau's pronouncement that BDS is intrinsically anti-Semitic is just a load of very successful right wing campaigning from Netanyahu, to silence criticism of his regime everywhere, including silencing his political opposition among centre-left Jews in Canada and elsewhere in the world, though they just held a big rally in Israel.

This thread started with information from Independent Jewish Voices Canada who oppose the violence of Netanyahu's political-military regime, develop relations and understandings with Palestinian Canadians and participate in promoting BDS ... Jewish and Palestinian Canadians who are now 'condemned' by Canada's Parliament.
Trudeau doesn't speak for them.

There is broad opposition to being told that BDS is antiSemitic:
https://www.universityworldnews.com/post.php?story=2019052308060312

But apparently Trudeau and Parliament only listen to right-wing Jewish and Israeli voices.

I'm not denying the existence of antiSemitism. Browse a white supremacist forum and that irrational hatred is blatant and disgusting and has absolutely nothing to do with Israel's current actions. They hate all nonAryan people. I am aware that antisemitism is a significant factor in the Arab world, and that Palestinian protest does cross that line. But I'm also aware of groups organizing to try to bridge that gap.

So I am appalled by this Canadian Parliament motion to silence our freedom to express criticism and to protest Israel's actions against Palestinians, that effectively undermines groups trying to bridge the gap:

That, given Canada and Israel share a long history of friendship as well as economic and diplomatic relations, the House reject the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement, which promotes the demonization  and delegitimization of the State of Israel, and call upon the government to condemn any and all attempts by Canadian organizations, groups or individuals to promote the BDS movement, both here at home and abroad.

I guess this thread is my protest against that motion, and Parliament can demonize and condemn me all they want.  Lol
Wtfit
  Hellfire and brimstone evangelical anti-Semitic agenda.
Liberals and Conservatives passed that.

« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 12:54:44 am by Granny »

Offline Granny

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #163 on: May 31, 2019, 01:10:15 am »
Canada’s updated trade agreement with Israel violates international law
Treating Israeli settlements as part of Israel in the new Canada-Israel free-trade deal entangles Canada in serious violations of international human rights and humanitarian law.

https://theconversation.com/canadas-updated-trade-agreement-with-israel-violates-international-law-117547?utm_medium=ampfacebook&utm_source=facebook

While Israel rejects that it’s the occupying power, there is a virtual wall-to-wall consensus among the international community — including the United Nations, the European Union, the International Court of Justice, the International Committee of the Red Cross and Canada — that the laws of occupation, including the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949, apply in full to the Palestinian territory.
...
Among the most important prohibitions in the Fourth Geneva Convention is the absolute rule, in Article 49(6), against the transfer by the occupying power of any of its civilian population into the occupied territory.
...
Ultimately, the settlements are the engine of the Israeli occupation. They serve as the irreducible “facts on the ground” to assert Israeli sovereignty and to forestall Palestinian self-determination.

On May 9, the Canadian Senate passed Bill C-85 — the Canada-Israel Free Trade Agreement Implementation Act. Bill C-85 amends and updates the original 1997 free-trade agreement between Canada and Israel. On May 27, it received royal assent.
...
First, the new agreement lacks a human rights provision, which would commit both parties to uphold international human rights and humanitarian law.

Secondly, the agreement allows goods and services produced in the Israeli settlements to enter Canada on the same tariff-free terms as goods and services originating in Israel. Enabling the benefits of the agreement to extend to Israel’s illegal settlements in the Palestinian territory is not only contrary to Canada’s general duty to uphold international law, it expressly violates both international and Canadian law, as well as the direction of the UN Security Council.

« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 04:21:54 am by Granny »

Offline Granny

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #164 on: May 31, 2019, 05:17:08 am »
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/hours-left-to-deadline-netanyahu-races-to-dissolve-knesset-live-updates-1.7302559
The Knesset voted Wednesday night to dissolve itself after Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu failed to form a governing coalition, sending Israel to a new election mere seven weeks after the last one.