Granny you are all over the place in your responses and you appear to have missed the point you were challenged on.
No one who has responded to you has said Palestinians do not have a problem.No one has said certain Israeli state policies are not helping and may be adding to the problem. No one has said criticizing Israeli state policies is anti semitic. However when you raise issues that have to do with Jews being extremist, such as the JDL that have nothing to do with the issues on the West Bank you initially raised yes you are challenged.
Can you focus on the actual issues of the West Bank and try suggest what CAN be done in specific positive terms that does not paint a black and white picture with an all or nothing series of proclamations by you? Granny, the JDL is not considered a representative of Israelis, the state of Israel, or any Jews for that matter other than the ones in it. It started off as an inner city gang mimicking the Black Panthers. Jewish students were being beaten up so some responded by becoming militant thinking if the Black Panthers could do it, so could they. It started as a reactionary response to being beaten up and did evolve with one wing in New York City let by a Rabbiah called Meyer Kahane. He moved to Israel with a cult following of about 80 Jews and they settled on the West Bank. They formed the Kache Party. They were part of a group of what we call Bible Zionists. They believed that since Judea and Somaria in the Bible were Jewish kingdoms wrongfully taken from Jews by Christians and Muslims they had the right to resettle in both areas.
They quoted the old Testament to justify their beliefs as to an Israeli state. Interestingly they moved next door to ultra-orthodox Hasidic Jews who have lived on the West Bank and in Hebron since the days it was called Jewish Somaria thousands of years ago. Those ultra-orthodox Jews do not believe Israel can exist until the Messiah first returns. They are therefore against an Israeli state. Some of them have allowed themselves to be used as guests in Iran and at anti semitic rallies against Israel depicting the holocaust as a lie.
The Kache Party was never anything but a fringe party. There are 3 kinds of Jewish Israeli on the West bank. Technically the ultra-orthodox Jews that do not recognize Israel do not call themselves Israelis but will demand Israeli social and medical services if it is to their benefit. They have spit in my face, thrown rocks at me and live in a very secluded segregated world and do not consider me or other Jews or Israelis Jewish. The Palestinian Authority and Hamas and Hezbollah propose a violent solution to them. They total about 200 to 250,000 of the Jews on the West Bank. Another 200-250,000 are what we call Nationalist Jews. They settled there with the firm belief that the West Bank was never part of any country and they have as much right to claim land there as any Muslim or Christian. Their legal position is not as one sided as it is depicted. The West Bank was never part of a foreign nation, and so because of that they do have legal rights to land ownership and the UN Resolutions that are often quoted do NOT and have never stated their land rights are illegal in fact they refer to the Israeli military presence and specific land purchases not all land purchases. Of these settlers, about one third could be considered potentially violent and hateful and from them came the Kache party and extremists of whom one killed Yitzhak Rabin the Prime Minister of Israel trying to promote a peace plan.
Another 200,00 Jews moved to the West Bank because they were dirt poor and had no where to live and many came from Arab countries where they had all their property confiscated. Most of them do NOT and have never hated Palestinians and moved out of necessity.
In regards to the Palestinians on the West Bank, the vast majority are descended from NON Palestinians who moved to the West Bank and in fact illegally squatted and took land away from actual native Palestinian inhabitants. So it is important you understand there are in fact more land title disputes between non Jewish Palestinians than Israelis and Palestinians. This is why Yasir Arafat blew up the Land Titles office on the West Bank. He had to hide the fact that the majority of people who took land on the West Bank were not Jews or Israelis but Palestinians.
Next the area known as the West Bank, Israel pre-1967 and Jordan was in fact prior to 1949 called Palestine. It was supposed to be divided equally into two nations one Muslim, one Jewish living side by side. You need to read the history of the Picot Agreement and how the French lied to Prince Faisal to have him rip up his deal with the Jews of Palestine so that France could carve out Syria and Lebanon as French colonies and the British could create puppet monarchies in Iran, Iraq, Jordan and then Saudi Arabia so the two nations could control the Muslims to get access to oil. Had the Jews and Muslims lived peacefully side by side, Britain and France would have had no special treatments. They did in the Middle East what they did everywhere else. They created on-going tribal tensions then posed as the intermediary. It was a divide and conquer technique of deliberately creating colonies of feuding tribes do justify their continued presence as moderators.
Read Winston Churchill's memoirs. Britain was awarded a mandate by the League of Nations to create two Palestinian states but never intended to create a Jewish one. Churchill was in charge. Britain illegally seized 90% of Palestine and called it the Jewish free, Palestinian state of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. They placed one of Faisal's son's on the throne to placate him for being lied to and arrested by the French. The British then placed Faisal's other son on the created colonial state of Iraq which sandwiched together in 3 layers Kurds, Shiites and Sunnis all feuding with one another. They then created a third kingdom in Saudi Arabia for the rest of Faisal's family and Syria and Lebanon once called Assyria were divided in 2. Syria is full of feuding tribes and Lebanon has 3 factions in perpetual war, Maronite Christian, Sunni and Muslim.
The West Bank was never and has never been part of any nation. The notion it belongs to Palestinians who have no nation as they are refugees from Israel in 1949 is false. The leaders of Palestinians never wanted and even ridiculed the notion of a Palestinian national or state until 1967. The term was only created in 1967 after Arafat was expelled from Jordan to Tunisia after failing to kill King Hussein of Jordan. Until then any Palestinian was given automatic citizenship in Jordan which still is and calls itself a Palestinian state. Because Arafat could not control Jordan, then and only then did he reinvent Palestinian to mean non Jordanian Palestinians.
You also have to understand that in the 1920's to WW2, Britain flooded the West Bank with non Palestinian Muslims with deliberate financial incentives to prevent a Jewish state. As Churchill stated, they did so because they paid back loyal Arabs for fighting along side them to defeat the Turks of the Ottoman Empire in WW1. The UAE and Kuwait are artificial monarchies like Saudi Arabia and Jordan whereby Britain appointed head of various tribes as the King of the country.
The day war broke out in WW2, the League of Nations was going to hold a meeting to disband Jordan as an illegal state and remove the mandate from the British. The War took over and the League was disbanded. During WW2 the Mullah of Jerusalem led the anti Jewish Palestinians into an alliance with Hitler to wipe Jews off the planet. The Mullah lived in a house confiscated from murdered Jews in Berlin and broadcast daily to the Arab world to join the Nazis. He was a principle influence in getting Heinrich Himmler to use gas to kill Jews more quickly. He is credited with taking a school bus, hooking up a hose, and then showing how gas quickly killed children and would be cheaper and faster than using bullets.While this man led the anti Jewish Palestinian nationals he never referred to wanting a Palestinian state ever. He talked of a Muslim state where all of the Middle East is. He recruited Yasir Arafat. Arafat ran drug cartels of heroin and hash hish from Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Turkey, Lebanon and Syria to Europe. Arafat's connections were ideal for setting up a network of cooperation. Until Arafat died he made billions from these drug trades and no he did not invest them in Palestinians and Arafat was Egyptian not Palestinian.
During WW2 Muslim Palestinians and Jewish Palestinians also fought side by side in the British Army Palestinian division. They were excellent fighters with expertise in desert warfare like the Rhodesians and like the Rhodesians and Australians also experts on desert warfare, these three units were principle in defeating the Nazis and Italians in North Africa. After the War Nazis fled to Brazil, Paraguay and Argentina, but the vast majority moved to Egypt, Syria and Iraq where they ran their government ministries, police and military.The Mukbarat, the secret police Arab countries use, is modelled on the Gestapo.The military goosestep, helment, riding jodphurs and boots of the three armies on parade is modelled on the Nazi uniform. The Baath Party of Syria and Iraq that ran both countries was modelled on the Nazi model.
In Egypt Vice President Anwar Sadat an Gamel Nasser both wore Hitler mustaches and to this day you will see them worn by old Arab men.
The military uniforms of both men were based on Hitler's uniform. Their armies as to Hamas, Hezbollah and the PA still use the Nazi salute and goose-step.
Eleanor Roosevelt was appointed the UN Commissioner for Jewish Refugees after WW2 and it was because of her taking on the entire world Jews had a place to live. When Jews went to Israel they did not invade. They came as victims of Muslim or European nations not as invaders. They had no weapons, no money. In fact the British Army waited for them and imprisoned them. In fact wealthy Muslim families in what is now Jordan donated land to Jewish refugees.
Palestinians for the most part were not the issue. The Arab League of Nations was. Each of its leaders was a British appointed monarch or dictator, and each was financed by Britain, France. German Nazis openly worked along side the British and French supporting these nations leaders. These colonial puppets did not want a Jewish state because in their Muslim religion they believe to this day no Jew can own land or have a nation anywhere on the planet. It was easy for ex Nazis, the British and French to exploit them. The British and French actually saw a Jewish nation as a thorn in their backside and an entity who could replace their expertise in technology for the Muslim nations. So they fanned a war to wipe the Jews off the face of Palestine and their armed forces were led by General Allenby and over 250 British military and French officers and ex Nazi officers. The British flew the Egyptian airplanes. The Arab League of nations attacked and this was not about Palestinians it was about getting ride of Jews. The only nation that stood up as Israel was about to be exterminated was Czechoslovakia who sent the few weapons they had and trained Jews to fight. These Jews of Palestine were also helped by Christians, Muslims and Jews from all over the world who volunteered as civilians. Beduin Arabs and Druze were principal defenders of Jews.
Israel said it would accept less than 6% of all of Palestine for a nation. Israel would be the shape of a very small kidney and a second Palestinian state would be next to it equally as small. The Arab League would not agree to that and commenced the war of 1948 to force the Jews to leave or die. It never happened. The pre-1967 borders of Israel to this date have never been recognized by any Arab state. This border is in fact an armistice line as to where the Arab armies fled after being chased by the much smaller Jewish forces. That is why Israel pre 1967 came about and to this day not even Jordan and Egypt who have peace treaties with Israel exchange ambassadors or recognize its borders.
It is the position of Hamas, the Palestinian Authority and Hezbollah and over 250 other terror cells, that Israel can not exist as a Jewish state, only as a Muslim sharia law state and only once reconnected to Jordan and the West Bank in one Sharia law Sunni Muslim state. Israel has no Arab country of Palestinian representative who will recognize the right of Israel to be Jewish to negotiate with, only Arab leaders and Palestinian leaders who call for the end of a Jewish Israel.
So we have the stalemate. Today's leaders of Palestinians outside Jordan do not spend a penny on them. They either funnel the money into offshore accounts or towards building tunnels and obtaining weapons for the war to liberate Israel.
I lived on the West Bank. I have seen the reality. You have 3 factions of Israelis on the West Bank and there are well over three hundred different political-terrorist cells operating on the West Bank, each with its own leader, each with its own opinion, that form the Palestinian Authority. None agree on anything but the end of Israel. Financial aid given to UNWRA or other Palestinian relief agencies does not go to its people it goes to terror cells.
There are moderate Palestinians and Israelis that will live side by side peacefully. They have no say at this point because Iranian ad Saudi financed outsiders control their cells and use them in a proxy war between Sunni and Shiite. The disputes between Israelis and Palestinians are smaller than the disputes between Palestinians and the disputes between Sunni and Shiite Muslims.
There are legal systems at the federal levels of Jordan and Israel, the municipal and regional levels of the governments of Jordan and Israel, old Ottoman Empire property titles, current land titles, Vatican City Canon law legal titles to land owned by churches and Rabbinical and Sharia religious laws all that are in conflict.
The principal concerns on the West Bank today are water. After that it is garbage. The West Bank is crowded by a huge increase in Palestinian population. The average Palestinian believes the best way to rid the Jews is to over populate and squeeze them out and their increase in population is doing just that but the environment on the West Bank has nowhere to place the garbage and water and air and natural wildlife is all suffering.
I was active in trying to rescue and rehabilitate animals on the West Bank and people of all religions ridiculed me and others for doing that.
These wildlife such as vultures were essential but misunderstood.
This conflict is not black and white. It has a history and long chain of events that all evolved into the disputes of today. In history taking a snap shot of the here and now when considering the dispute is misleading.
More Palestinians and Muslims are dying from Muslim terror attacks than by Israelis.
People do not understand the reality of what goes on in the alleys, streets, lane ways of the Gaza and West bank. They have no idea how small it is. They just assume the only dispute is between Israelis and Palestinians and all Israelis think one way and all Palestinians the other.
Its just not true. There are extremists, haters, terrorists but they are the vocal minority. The majority remains silent and feels powerless to control their destiny and no Palestinians do not blame it all on Israel they know damn well its their own leaders who are corrupt and use the conflict with Israel to detract from their own failures and corruption. Israelis do not all agree with their government. Israel is a loud boisterous nation of opinions that speak openly and want peace and constructive change.
No Israeli or Palestinian relies on the West to understand. Some many manipulate people in the West because they know foe example in Canada we have arm chair analysts who believe they can form accurate opinions and pronounce moral rights and wrongs by what they think they read or saw on the internet.
I took this time to write this out for Granny. If she feels it too long so be it but no one can say I come on this board to hate Palestinians or defend wrong or suggest I said things I did not and it is to show this is not about Jews, it is about a conflict of many peoples of many religions. There is no right or wrong. If and when the collective psyche of the Muslim world can accept Israel as a Jewish state, everything else to achieve peace will be possible. Until then the status quo remains.
Granny provide solutions for two peoples to live side by side equally. Try it. Its a hell of a lot harder than cutting and pasting partisan one sided versions of an event with zero suggestions.
I have done it before on this forum many times:
1-recognize Israel as a Jewish state
2-disarm all terrorists
3-create a water irrigation system between Gaza, Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Jordan and the West Bank
4-create a common free trade market between Gaza, Israel, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and the West Bank including access to each others ports and airports, railways and roads for the shipment of goods and produce
5-create electric and solar energy grids for all member countries working together on it
6-create water desalination plants
7-share intelligence on technology
8-all equal and mutual access to religious and archeological sites
9-cultivate student exchanges
10-create animal and environment rehabilitation programs and projects
11-create a sewage system.
I do regularly converse with people on all sides of the conflict on the above. Some of us do. We don't scream and yell, moprally judge one another, blame people.
The next 200,000
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