Author Topic: International Jewish Voices  (Read 4713 times)

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Offline Pinus or Vid or...?????

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #105 on: May 21, 2019, 11:46:52 pm »
You seem to have not strayed far from mommy's basement into the broader world. I have and often times supporting the UN after the US got done killing people. And what nit wit **** came up with this stupid little braindead cartoon?

Someone is cranky today.

Sleep on it. homie.  You will feel better in the morning.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 11:49:03 pm by Vid »
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Offline Omni

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #106 on: May 21, 2019, 11:56:10 pm »
Someone is cranky today.

Sleep on it. homie.  You will feel better in the morning.

Sorry to have upset your little apple cart, homie. I guess sometimes people with actual experience react a little harshly to those who pretend, but don't. I'll feel the same in the morning. 
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Offline waldo

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #107 on: May 22, 2019, 09:37:39 am »
The first steps toward true pluralism will come when Arab countries acknowledge the history of persecution and intolerance in their own lands. They should start by unearthing the 850,000 untold stories of Jews ripped from their ancient homes.

The historic Jewish presence in the Arab World must be recognized. The grave injustices inflicted upon them must be acknowledged. The crimes committed against them must be rectified.[/i]

hey homie, since you're determined to distract from the intent of this thread, let the waldo showcase your parroting. Care to provide a summary accounting of that 850K number in terms of 'forced refugee' versus 'willing/wanting emigrants'... while you're doing that identify the area/countries those refugees/emigrants settled in - yes?
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Offline Granny

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #108 on: May 22, 2019, 11:27:19 am »
I agree with you.  The problem is you take the side of the Palestinians, and ignore the other side.  There are different narratives at play here, and the situation is very complex, which is why we don't have peace after a century of conflict.

Israel illegally occupies Arab territory, and illegally builds settlements to expands its colonial takeover of the West Bank. On the other hand, Jews are probably the most hated peoples in the world, barely survived the Nazi holocaust, and are surrounded by Arab countries whom many would gladly kill every Jew in Israel if they could get away with it, and governments in the Palestinian territories that deny their right to exist and would also gladly exterminate them had they the means.

There are no good guys and bad guys in this, just a lot of BS.

It's just a "demographic debate" now, as Israel's ethnic cleansing (extermination?) of Palestinians succeeds:
https://www.haaretz.com/.premium-how-many-palestinians-are-there-1.5288567

When far fewer Palestinians are left in Gaza and the West Bank, perhaps Israel will absorb them as a minority, likely with restrictions on their land and other rights to maintain Israel as a Jewish state.

It's quite reasonable that there are people who speak up to defend Palestinians in these circumstances.





« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 03:58:53 pm by Granny »

Offline Pinus or Vid or...?????

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #109 on: May 22, 2019, 11:44:48 am »
It's just a "demographic debate" now, as Israel's ethnic cleansing (extermination?) of Palestinians succeeds:
https://www.haaretz.com/.premium-how-many-palestinians-are-there-1.5288567

When far fewer Palestinians left in Gaza and the West Bank, perhaps Israel will absorb them as a minority, likely with restrictions on their land and other rights to maintain Israel as a Jewish state.

It's quite reasonable that there are people who speak up to defend Palestinians in these circumstances.

The bolded part of your post is not true. Granny, I do not think you understand the definition of Ethnic Cleansing.  You have mentioned extermination and Genocide committed against Arabs in Israeli controlled land. DO you have any legitimate evidence to substantiate your position?



Since 1967, the Palestinian population of the Arabs in Israel and the Occupied Territories has risen from just over 1,000,000 to over 6,000,000 today.  If Israel was indeed committing Ethnic Cleansing, then the total non-Jewish population would have declined. 



Compare that with an actual case of ethnic cleansing, like Arab countries forcing their historical Jewish population out of their respective countries through violence and persecution.  Your hatred of Israel blinds you to inconvenient truths of who the real guilty party is, when it comes to ethnic cleansing in the Middle East.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 11:53:36 am by Vid »
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #110 on: May 22, 2019, 12:55:02 pm »
It's just a "demographic debate" now, as Israel's ethnic cleansing (extermination?) of Palestinians succeeds:
https://www.haaretz.com/.premium-how-many-palestinians-are-there-1.5288567

From:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Population

Quote
In 2006, the official number of Arab residents in Israel was 1,413,500 people, about 20% of Israel's population. This figure includes 209,000 Arabs (14% of the Israeli Arab population) in East Jerusalem, also counted in the Palestinian statistics, although 98% of East Jerusalem Palestinians have either Israeli residency or Israeli citizenship.[113] In 2012, the official number of Arab residents in Israel increased from 1,413,500 people (in 2006)[113] to 1,617,000 or about 21% of Israeli population.[114] The Arab population in 2013 was estimated at 1,658,000, representing 21% of the country's population.

I don't know where you're getting this "extermination" and "ethnic cleansing" rhetoric.  What Israel has been doing is making sure to keep Israel as a Jewish state, which has some calling it an "apartheid state".  But of course, it's perfectly understandable for Israel to want their country to be a Jewish nationalist state, so how to deal with the Arabs in their state is tricky.  Similar to how Quebec wants to be a francophone province and how it has to deal with English and other non-french speakers.

Can you point to evidence of ethnic cleansing?  Arabs making up 21% of the population of Israel (and rising) says otherwise.  They could have kicked them out long ago had they wanted to.
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Offline Pinus or Vid or...?????

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #111 on: May 22, 2019, 01:06:00 pm »
From:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Population

I don't know where you're getting this "extermination" and "ethnic cleansing" rhetoric.  What Israel has been doing is making sure to keep Israel as a Jewish state, which has some calling it an "apartheid state".  But of course, it's perfectly understandable for Israel to want their country to be a Jewish nationalist state, so how to deal with the Arabs in their state is tricky.  Similar to how Quebec wants to be a francophone province and how it has to deal with English and other non-french speakers.

Can you point to evidence of ethnic cleansing?  Arabs making up 21% of the population of Israel (and rising) says otherwise.  They could have kicked them out long ago had they wanted to.

There has been absolutely no ethnic cleansing or Genocide of the Palestinian population, as Granny seems to want us to believe. Arguably committing Human Rights abuses in the West Bank/Gaza Strip is a far cry from "Genocide."
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Offline Granny

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #112 on: May 22, 2019, 05:07:57 pm »
From:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Population

I don't know where you're getting this "extermination" and "ethnic cleansing" rhetoric.  What Israel has been doing is making sure to keep Israel as a Jewish state, which has some calling it an "apartheid state".  But of course, it's perfectly understandable for Israel to want their country to be a Jewish nationalist state, so how to deal with the Arabs in their state is tricky.  Similar to how Quebec wants to be a francophone province and how it has to deal with English and other non-french speakers.

Can you point to evidence of ethnic cleansing?  Arabs making up 21% of the population of Israel (and rising) says otherwise.  They could have kicked them out long ago had they wanted to.

Your stats are for Israel, and do not include Gaza/West Bank = Palestine.

The question is ... Can a One State solution be implemented ("from the river to the sea") and Israel-Palestine still be a Jewish state?

(From my link above)
The debate boils down to whether there is a Jewish majority between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. According to Ettinger, Jews make up 66 percent of the population between the river and the sea. And due to the change in birthrates, this majority is stable. "There is no Arab time bomb, there is a Jewish tailwind," he said.

According to Soffer, there are 6.2 million Jews and others in Israel, 1.7 million Palestinians in the Gaza Strip and 2.5 million Palestinians in the West Bank. There are 1.6 million Israeli Arabs, not including Druze. Thus there are 5.8 million Arabs and 6.2 million Jews between the Jordan and the Mediterranean.

Soffer also talks about 60,000 people who have entered Israel illegally, 120,000 tourists who have outstayed their visas, and 300,000 Palestinians who have entered Israel since 1967 and live here, as well as foreign workers. "We are now 49 percent between the Jordan and the sea," Soffer says.


It seems there is no agreement.
Zionist Israel's intention is and always has been a Jewish state "from the river to the sea".
Now it's just a question of when (and how?) the Arab population of the West Bank and Gaza are reduced to a safe enough minority that Israel can absorb them and still dominate them politically.

Let's just say that Israel's "human rights abuses" in Gaza and the West Bank may be experienced as ethnic cleansing or genocide (same thing) by Palestinians.


« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 05:26:27 pm by Granny »

Offline Pinus or Vid or...?????

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #113 on: May 22, 2019, 06:39:35 pm »

It seems there is no agreement.
Zionist Israel's intention is and always has been a Jewish state "from the river to the sea".
Now it's just a question of when (and how?) the Arab population of the West Bank and Gaza are reduced to a safe enough minority that Israel can absorb them and still dominate them politically.

Why do you insist on labeling the Jewish state as "Zionist Israel?"  The Arab position has always been to push the Jews into the sea, and eradicate them.

Quote
Let's just say that Israel's "human rights abuses" in Gaza and the West Bank may be experienced as ethnic cleansing or genocide (same thing) by Palestinians.

While I agree Israel could very well be guilty of Human Rights abuses in the Occupied Territories, you argument is completely discredited on your insistence that Israel is committing "Genocide" or "ethnic cleansing."

Genocide:

Genocide, the deliberate and systematic destruction of a group of people because of their ethnicity, nationality, religion, or race. The term, derived from the Greek genos (“race,” “tribe,” or “nation”) and the Latin cide (“killing”), was coined by Raphael Lemkin, a Polish-born jurist who served as an adviser to the U.S. Department of War during World War II.

Although the term itself is of recent origin, genocide arguably has been practiced throughout history (though some observers have restricted its occurrence to a very few cases). According to Thucydides, for example, the people of Melos were slaughtered after refusing to surrender to the Athenians during the Peloponnesian War. Indeed, in ancient times it was common for victors in war to massacre all the men of a conquered population. The massacre of Cathari during the Albigensian Crusade in the 13th century is sometimes cited as the first modern case of genocide, though medieval scholars generally have resisted this characterization. Twentieth-century events often cited as genocide include the 1915 Armenian massacre by the Turkish-led Ottoman Empire, the nearly complete extermination of European Jews, Roma (Gypsies), and other groups by Nazi Germany during World War II, and the killing of Tutsi by Hutu in Rwanda in the 1990s.

source: https://www.britannica.com/topic/genocide

Ethnic Cleansing:

Ethnic cleansing, the attempt to create ethnically homogeneous geographic areas through the deportation or forcible displacement of persons belonging to particular ethnic groups. Ethnic cleansing sometimes involves the removal of all physical vestiges of the targeted group through the destruction of monuments, cemeteries, and houses of worship.

source: https://www.britannica.com/topic/ethnic-cleansing
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 06:46:41 pm by Vid »
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Offline ?Impact

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #114 on: May 22, 2019, 06:44:38 pm »
The Arab position has always been to push the Jews into the sea, and eradicate them.

I thought the Arab's were nomadic people.

Offline Granny

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #115 on: May 22, 2019, 07:25:27 pm »
Why do you insist on labeling the Jewish state as "Zionist Israel?"
Because there may be people in Israel who are not Zionists.
Quote
The Arab position has always been to push the Jews into the sea, and eradicate them.
And Zionists likewise to the Arabs.
No solutions in retaining those positions though.
Maybe people can learn to live together peacefully.

Quote
While I agree Israel could very well be guilty of Human Rights abuses in the Occupied Territories,
What human rights abuses by Israel in the Occupied Territories are you referring to? 

 

Offline Pinus or Vid or...?????

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #116 on: May 22, 2019, 07:32:47 pm »
Because there may be people in Israel who are not Zionists. And Zionists likewise to the Arabs.
?

Quote
No solutions in retaining those positions though.
Maybe people can learn to live together peacefully.

In a perfect World, that would be an ideal solution.  However, it will never happen. We are talking about the Holy Land, and Christians, Musilms, and Jews have been fighting for centuries.

Quote
What human rights abuses by Israel in the Occupied Territories are you referring to?

Israel has given preferential treatment to settlers (approx. 250,000, 500,000 if one considers East Jerusalem) mainly Orthodox Jews. On some occasions, Palestinian homes and villages have been displaced.  I will refer to this map I found on the BBC website:

« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 07:36:00 pm by Vid »
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Offline waldo

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #117 on: May 23, 2019, 12:00:10 am »
hey homie, since you're determined to distract from the intent of this thread, let the waldo showcase your parroting. Care to provide a summary accounting of that 850K number in terms of 'forced refugee' versus 'willing/wanting emigrants'... while you're doing that identify the area/countries those refugees/emigrants settled in - yes?

still waiting member Vid - still waiting!
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Offline waldo

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #118 on: May 23, 2019, 12:02:24 am »
I will refer to this map I found on the BBC website:

you're not referring to your MEGAsized map - you simply linked to it... such a grand 'ta da'!  ;D C'mon homie - learn how to size images - yeesh!
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Offline Granny

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #119 on: May 23, 2019, 07:09:08 am »
?

In a perfect World, that would be an ideal solution.  However, it will never happen. We are talking about the Holy Land, and Christians, Musilms, and Jews have been fighting for centuries.

Israel has given preferential treatment to settlers (approx. 250,000, 500,000 if one considers East Jerusalem) mainly Orthodox Jews. On some occasions, Palestinian homes and villages have been displaced.

 I will refer to this map I found on the BBC website:


Thanks Vid, though I'm having some difficulty interpreting it.
What do you actually mean by "displaced"?
How many Palestinian homes and villages have been "displaced"... and why?
What happened to those Palestinians? Where are they now?

How does your map relate to this map history of Israel's  expansion ?

https://images.app.goo.gl/A1njbSfMCxYxdFKu7
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 07:11:07 am by Granny »