Author Topic: International Jewish Voices  (Read 4682 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Pinus or Vid or...?????

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 510
Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #75 on: May 20, 2019, 04:16:50 pm »
You are only open to those in agreement with you. If anyone has a different opinion, you lash out on them like Rue has stated. Therefore I am done "your" thread. Have fun arguing with yourself.

PS..quit trying to link the fate of the Jews under the Third Reich with Israel's treatment of people living in the Occupied territories. You have claimed Israel has committed "Genocide" on the Palestinians, which only makes you look foolish, and is a slap in the face for ethnic groups that have been real victims of systematic genocide.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 05:47:54 pm by Vid »
If Omni, Impact, and the_squid ever had a love child, I would be him
Agree Agree x 1 Winner Winner x 1 Dumb Dumb x 1 View List

Offline Granny

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1172
Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #76 on: May 20, 2019, 06:09:30 pm »
You are only open to those in agreement with you. If anyone has a different opinion, you lash out on them like Rue has stated. Therefore I am done "your" thread. Have fun arguing with yourself.

PS..quit trying to link the fate of the Jews under the Third Reich with Israel's treatment of people living in the Occupied territories. You have claimed Israel has committed "Genocide" on the Palestinians, which only makes you look foolish, and is a slap in the face for ethnic groups that have been real victims of systematic genocide.

We disagree.
I'm ok with just leaving it at that.



Offline Granny

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1172
Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #77 on: May 20, 2019, 06:29:33 pm »
From today's IJV protest of the UJA Walk for Israel in Toronto:
INDEPENDENT JEWISH VOICES CANADA
Today, forty of us turned out, despite threats from those who oppose our views, to protest at the Walk for Israel in Toronto. Below is long-time activist Orev Reena Katz’s letter about why she protested.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10157597713755016&id=742285015
From earlier today: Who are you walking with? Protesting the annual UJA Walk for Israel at Bathurst/Wilson Parkette

With whom and for what did I walk?  Why are you walking?

I grew up in this neighbourhood in the 1980s.  I attended public and hebrew school here.  My family belonged to the local synagogue around the corner, our family doctor was less than a block from this parkette.  We shopped every week at the Loblaws that later became the No Frills across the street.  My bubbie and great-aunt lived between here and York Downs.  I went to camp at Earl Bales Park.  I bought bagels at Bagel King, corned beef at Pancer’s deli, latkes at Marky’s restaurant, and hung out way too often at Country Time donuts.  On Shabbat, it was my job in our family to walk to Carmel Bakery to buy the challah and treats.  The landsmanshaft to which my family belonged, originating from my paternal grandmother’s hometown in Poland is a block west of here.  I once kissed a Chassidic boy in this very parkette.   It was thrilling to cross denominational lines, and to play with his peyes, to wonder what else was out there, what other secret desires might unfold south of Eglinton. 

I marched in the Walk for Israel in this neighbourhood throughout my elementary school years.  I volunteered with my Hebrew school class, and collected stamps on my passport at each “checkpoint”.  I participated.  I received praise for the tzedakah contributions in my cardboard Jewish National Fund box.  The process was mostly a social experience for me, not an ideological one.  I had that privilege.  Without giving much thought to it, I assumed Israel was a good country, somehow my country.  It was, at the very least, a safe place we could all flee if anything like the Holocaust ever happened in Canada.  It took me 15 years and a lot of questioning to realize I was told less than half the story.  We were told less than half the story. 

Once I had the honour of meeting Palestinians, of hearing what the Nakba did to their families, and what Israel’s Occupation and Apartheid system meant to them, 1948 came to symbolize something very different than a Jewish “homeland”.  I unlearned the deep Zionist indoctrination of my childhood.  What seemed so true when it came out of my Bubbie’s mouth, or showed up on my favourite teacher’s bookshelf, began to sound like a clarion call, born of fear, hatred and ignorance. 

We gather every year to protest the UJA Walk for Israel, and offer a different voice in Jewish community.  We’re here today to invite you to question and unlearn the racism that the Walk for Israel preaches.  There is another way to understand our collective grieving, our centuries of loss, and it starts with learning about power – white supremacy and colonization – the ideologies that created the genocides, displacements and dispossessions of our people, as well as that of Indigenous people on Turtle Island, and Palestinians worldwide. 

Wake up.  We can’t fake our way to safety by taking away another people’s land, their rights, their humanity – all in the name of our own survival. 

What are you actually walking with when you walk with the UJA?

Ignorance. Diffidence.  Fear.  Hatred.  Apartheid.  Xenophobia.  Parochial values. Myopia.

Our presence here today isn’t about “you” and “us”.  It is about WE.  We are all guilty of perpetuating violence and hatred, of choosing to be enemies instead of just being with our shared humanity, and listening to history.  This attitude is learned.  It’s part of our legacy as Jews on colonized land here and in Palestine.  We can hold up the Sacred Mirror for each other and move towards transformation, towards justice.  Let us be a City of Refuge for each other, where we learn trust, abundance, collective understanding, and how to change together, without our judgements, without our wounds.

Join the resistance.  Be a proud anti-Zionist Jew.  Move for Palestine.  Move for dignity, human rights, and justice.  Move for human survival and self-determination for all people.  Move against this endless war, environmental devastation and land theft.  Move against the illegal incarceration of youth, home invasions and demolitions.  Move against a wall of fear and hatred that keeps people from their neighbours, steals livelihoods and prevents people from living in dignity.

Offline Michael Hardner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12463
Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #78 on: May 20, 2019, 06:40:55 pm »
And the thing about anti-Zionist Jews is... they're Jewish.  I don't suspect them of being backed by anti-Semites.  They are protesting the actions of Israel. 

Offline Pinus or Vid or...?????

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 510
Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #79 on: May 20, 2019, 07:06:01 pm »
And the thing about anti-Zionist Jews is... they're Jewish.  I don't suspect them of being backed by anti-Semites.  They are protesting the actions of Israel.

I can't help but notice there are two or three threads on this subject, yet...

No threads on the occupation of Tibet
No threads on the occupation of the Crimea
No threads on the human rights abuses in East Timor
No threads on the recent atrocities in South Sudan
No threads on human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia
No threads on human rights abuses in Guantanamo Bay
No threads on atrocities committed in Syria

However, there is one state that is repeatedly singled out for condemnation. Israel.  Never mind that pretty much every Arab state from 1947 onwards enacted Nuremberg style laws against the Jews, and ethnically cleansed the Arab World of its Jewish population.

The truth is, at least in Europe, condemning Israel serves a purpose. It shifts focus from the inactions of the states of Europe during the Holocaust, and makes the Jewish state look like the bad guy. After all, it is easy to justify not doing anything when your neighbour is dragged from his home, and killed when you can paint your neighbour as an unsavory character who "deserved what was coming to him."
« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 09:32:13 pm by Vid »
If Omni, Impact, and the_squid ever had a love child, I would be him

Offline waldo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8713
Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #80 on: May 21, 2019, 05:18:19 am »
Therefore I am done "your" thread. Have fun arguing with yourself.

teaser... thought you were done!

Offline waldo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8713
Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #81 on: May 21, 2019, 05:18:30 am »
I can't help but notice there are two or three threads on this subject, yet...

no - as I'm aware there is but one thread, this thread, with an intent aligned with the following representative post extracts; an intent you and your cohort, member Rue, have been purposely distracting from:

There are Jewish voices in Canada and elsewhere who support Palestinian anti-occupation action.
Disagreeing with Israel is not anti-Semitism.
Support for Palestinians can be spoken here.
This thread is my experiment to see whether reasonable people who recognize that Palestinians are under siege can have an intelligent discussion about that.

Without Israeli anti-Muslim propaganda trolling, please.
In this thread, I would like to be able to provide information from alternate viewpoints for respectful discussion.
Like Like x 1 Dumb Dumb x 1 View List

Offline Granny

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1172
Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #82 on: May 21, 2019, 10:06:39 am »
no - as I'm aware there is but one thread, this thread, with an intent aligned with the following representative post extracts; an intent you and your cohort, member Rue, have been purposely distracting from:

Thanks waldo.
Yes, the purpose of this thread is to show that the struggle in Israel-Palestine is not purely a Jew-nonJew issue: There are Jewish people in Canada and elsewhere, including Israel, who regret Israel's choices in oppressing Palestinians and have the courage to speak up. They work with Palestinian-Canadians and others to educate Canadians about the issue, and to shine a spotlight on Israel's reprehensible actions in oppressing the rights, safety and well-being of Palestinians.

Israel is not exempt from International law because 'somebody else hurt them first'.
Israel is not exempt from International law because 'somebody else does it too'.

Israel is an ally of Canada, but many people are now questioning whether our support is addressing resolutions or just supporting status quo apartheid and oppression policies and actions.

I guess because I'm a 'lefty' labour/social justice type, the Jewish-Canadian people I've known are too, and also the Palestinian-Canadians. I know that conversations about solutions are possible in that respectful environment, still difficult, but understandings do progress and become actions.

(Side note: Long before Canada ever said the word 'multiculturalism', from the early days of organizing, the Labour movement has had to address racial/ethnic/cultural divisions to succeed. "A member is a member is a member." Period.)

But those discussions between Jewish and Palestinian Canadians were held in private in Canada, a presumably safe space for difficult cross-cultural discussions.
It's much more difficult to have those conversations in public spaces even in Canada ... drowned out, insulted into silence, word-bombed.

(But that too is freedom of expression: Anti-racists do that to white supremacists all the time. Lol )

But then we are told by our own government that we can't participate in or encourage Boycott, DIvest and Sanction of Israel?! That BDS is "anti-Semitic"?!
"Unh... No it isn't ... and excuse me, Justin but when exactly did we give up our freedom of expression to YOU?!!'

I think that obnoxious public 'directive' to Canadians from the PMO has galvanized more safe and private conversations to go public in Canada despite the opposition.
That's some progress. So thanks Justin! Lol


« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 10:49:24 am by Granny »

Offline Rue

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 835
  • The beast feeds on fear - I feast on the beast.
  • Location: inside a matrix
Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #83 on: May 21, 2019, 12:34:46 pm »
And the thing about anti-Zionist Jews is... they're Jewish.  I don't suspect them of being backed by anti-Semites.  They are protesting the actions of Israel.

Its not any more relevant than anti-Zionists of any religion.  Why is their religion significant or germaine to the issue?

Why is it when a Jew is anti Israeli it is of significance?  I asked Granny the same question and she wouldn't answer. How about you?

A Jew's opinion about Israel is no different than a non Jew's.  Why is it different?

 If you keep singling out the opinion is from a Jew and not non Jews then yes it could take on an anti-Semitic context because there is zero reason for referring to the religion unless you want to play good Jew bad Jew.



Can you or  Granny or anyone else  discuss an issue about Israel without making it an issue about Jews? Can you discuss Israeli state policies without

Or should I start pointing out when pro Zionists are not circumcised or Jewish? Come on MH get the point.

« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 12:51:40 pm by Rue »
You have me mistaken with an eagle. I only come to eat your carcass.
Dislike Dislike x 1 View List

Offline cybercoma

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2956
Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #84 on: May 21, 2019, 01:24:07 pm »
This thread is a god damned dumpster fire.
Like Like x 1 Funny Funny x 1 Winner Winner x 1 Informative Informative x 1 Useful Useful x 1 Optimistic Optimistic x 1 View List

Offline waldo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8713
Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #85 on: May 21, 2019, 03:10:30 pm »
But then we are told by our own government that we can't participate in or encourage Boycott, DIvest and Sanction of Israel?! That BDS is "anti-Semitic"?!
"Unh... No it isn't ... and excuse me, Justin but when exactly did we give up our freedom of expression to YOU?!!'

"can't participate/encourage"??? I'd appreciate a citation to that end... in any case, PM Trudeau has most certainly reaffirmed the Liberal Party position on BDS - one that reflects upon that symbolic 2016 motion put forward by the CPC; a resulting vote that effectively followed party lines (CPC, Liberal versus NDP, Bloc Québécois).



as the outspoken Green Party supporter you are, it is interesting to note that somehow the single sitting Green Party member, its leader Elizabeth May, somehow managed to miss that vote. In any case, she made her position quite known 6 months later after a Green Party convention that voted to adopt a pro-BDS policy; specifically:

Quote from: Elizabeth May - leader of the Green Party
As Leader, I am disappointed that the membership has adopted a policy in favour of a movement that I believe to be polarizing, ineffective and unhelpful in the quest for peace and security for the peoples of the Middle East. As is the right of any member, I will continue to express personal opposition to BDS.
Dumb Dumb x 1 View List

Offline Queefer Sutherland

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10186
Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #86 on: May 21, 2019, 03:34:57 pm »
I find it odd that there's a BDS movement directed towards Israel, but none of the other many, many countries in the world with problematic human rights records.  Same with musicians who refuse to play in Israel but will play in dictatorship countries.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley
Winner Winner x 1 View List

Offline Granny

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1172
Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #87 on: May 21, 2019, 04:51:28 pm »
I find it odd that there's a BDS movement directed towards Israel, but none of the other many, many countries in the world with problematic human rights records.  Same with musicians who refuse to play in Israel but will play in dictatorship countries.

Fill your boots: Start your own thread.

Canada is an ally of Israel.
This thread provides a place for information and discussion about Israel-Palestine issues of concern to
Canadians.


Offline Omni

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8563
Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #88 on: May 21, 2019, 05:02:00 pm »
I find it odd that there's a BDS movement directed towards Israel, but none of the other many, many countries in the world with problematic human rights records.  Same with musicians who refuse to play in Israel but will play in dictatorship countries.

So you reckon there should be one thread to cover all the worlds sectarian problems? So go start one, or are you simply trying to whitewash this particular one?
Like Like x 1 View List

Offline ?Impact

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2941
Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #89 on: May 21, 2019, 05:05:52 pm »
However, there is one state that is repeatedly singled out for condemnation. Israel.

The difference is nobody is defending the other states. Whenever actions are condemned, there always seems to be someone trying to defend the indefensible in the case of Israel.