Author Topic: International Jewish Voices  (Read 2328 times)

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Offline Rue

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #60 on: May 18, 2019, 09:06:14 am »
Link/quote?

1-Your first post on May 3
Jewish-American activists beaten and detained by Israeli soldiers in West Bank
The activists were part of a delegation of 42 Jews from the US and Canada
There are Jewish voices in Canada and elsewhere….

2-Your post on May 4
Disagreeing with Israel is not anti-Semitism.

3-your response May 14
So like Rue, your answer is ...
'Somebody committed genocide against Jews so Israel can commit genocide against Palestinians.'

5-Another response by you May 14
On Monday, May 20, members of the Toronto Jewish community will participate in the annual Walk with Israel, which is taking place in the Bathurst and Wilson area.

Indeed, like tens of thousands of Jews worldwide, we oppose Israel’s ongoing illegal occupation of Palestinian lands

Your comments in 1 and 5 above, made it an issue about Jews not Israeli state policies. The religion or ethnicity of the people you refer to is not relevant-you made it relevant. Their support of the existence of Israel has nothing to do with the thread topic.  By linking the two you made it about Jews and ANY support for Israel.

Your use of Jews is known as the device called: good Jew bad Jew
http://www.tomatobubble.com/id631.html

Your comment in 2 above was introduced by you….no one suggested your comments were anti-semitic and no one had said criticism of Israel was anti-semitic, you chose to raise that argument right away in the thread. However since you raised the issue, yes using the device of good Jew/bad Jew can be an anti-semitic device. Your responses mixed all  Jews with Israeli state policies in your criticisms.
https://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.com/2018/04/playing-good-jew-bad-jew-to.html

Your comment in 3  was a complete misrepresentation of what either I or Vid stated and is known as the device called “holocaust inversion”:
http://www.thomaswictor.com/holocaust-inversion/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_inversion

https://spme.org/anti-semitism/holocaust-inversion/16885/

Your mixing of Jews and Israeli state policies in your discussion incited Impact to state in a response about how JEWS have a moral responsibility not to persecute. He felt the need to single Jews out. Do you think your comments incited his response? Do you think all humans have a moral responsibility not to persecute including Palestinians or should we use this thread to focus on Jews who are Israeli and Jews who support Israel’s existence. Why?  Do you consider Israeli state policies on the West Bank a problem with Jews?

Clearly you have a problem understanding that not all Israelis who support the existence of Israel as a Jewish state are Jews. You seem to think if a Jew has a disagreement with an Israeli state policy their Jewishness should be raised. Why? I asked you and you ignored me. 

I can only conclude you have a problem understanding that not all Israeli Jews or non Israeli Jews and for that matter any non Jewish Israeli or non Jewish non Israeli who supports Israel’s right to existence do not necessarily support certain Israeli policies, or if they do, their religion or ethnicity may not be material to why they support these policies.

Here maybe this will  better explain it for you:
https://www.adl.org/resources/tools-and-strategies/what-is-anti-israel-anti-semitic-anti-zionist
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Offline Granny

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #61 on: May 18, 2019, 08:09:49 pm »
...inyter-change the word Jew with Israeli state policies,
Steaming pile of crap, Rue.
I have not done that.

Please stop word bombing with false accusations.

You make it impossible for supporters of Palestinians to discuss Palestinian issues respectfully.

I post information from Independent Jewish Voices Canada because they have a right to speak up, and do so eloquently.
 
Opposing voices are to be respected in this thread.

You're tired old tactic of accusing me of anti-Semitism is .... zzzzzzzzzz
« Last Edit: May 18, 2019, 08:12:37 pm by Granny »

Offline Rue

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #62 on: May 19, 2019, 08:06:56 am »
...inyter-change the word Jew with Israeli state policies,
Steaming pile of crap, Rue.
I have not done that.

Please stop word bombing with false accusations.

You make it impossible for supporters of Palestinians to discuss Palestinian issues respectfully.

I post information from Independent Jewish Voices Canada because they have a right to speak up, and do so eloquently.
 
Opposing voices are to be respected in this thread.

You're tired old tactic of accusing me of anti-Semitism is .... zzzzzzzzzz

I did not "word bomb" You asked me to provide your words, so I did.  Take ownership of them. 

Your response now shows what? You make the statement " Opposing voices are to be respected in this thread."  but you again show disrespect to anyone who disagrees with you not just me on this thread.

That Granny speaks loudly. If you commence a thread to state one sided, uncontested subjective opinions and make references to Jews that have nothing to do with the supposed issue you raised in the thread that deals with Israeli state policies, you will be challenged by me and others. You don't own the thread nor are your repeated attempts to try control what opinions people can have when responding to you, are nonsensical.

May I also point out interestingly that so far you are the only one referring to yourself as an anti-Semite.


The Jewish identity of the activists was immaterial to their views but you  chose to make their being Jewish relevant. You also chose to raise an issue about Jews in a charity walk that has nothing to do with the thread.


Your comments attacking Jews for walking in a charity walk has nothing to do with the thread.

Here is what I am asking you to consider when engaging in such threads:

source:https://honestreporting.com/how-criticize-israel-without-being-antisemitic/

"While criticism of Israel and advocacy for Israel is not inherently antisemitic, much of it departs from the realm of fair comment and crosses the boundary into antisemitism. But, when this is pointed out, Jews are often accused of ‘playing the antisemitism card’. This makes light of bigotry, and undermines the ability to separate between legitimate criticism and illegitimate smears. In the absence of a single universally accepted definition of antisemitism, perhaps this list of things to remember will help people who want to fairly criticize Israel without falling into antisemitic canards or tropes.

1. Israel, and Israelis, exist

Israel is not a theoretical model; there are real people involved. Many of us desperately want peace and security. Whatever we say or believe, our human rights are not conditional. We aren’t an abstract idea, don’t suggest putting thousands or millions of real lives at risk.

2. Jews are not the same as Israel

Jews have a wide range of opinions, and many Jews around the world aren’t really aware of what’s going on in Israel. If individual or Catholics in general shouldn’t be attacked for the actions or positions of the Vatican, and if most people agree that Muslims should not held responsible for terrorism, then Jews should not be conflated with Israel. Don’t blame “Jews” for Israeli policies you don’t like.

3. Criticize specific policies

Vague assertions of Israeli control or evildoing echo centuries of vague assertions of Jewish control and mendaciousness. Both are smears, putting Jews and Israelis on the defensive against pernicious claims that are hard to pin down. If you want to honestly criticize Israel, do so by addressing specific issues and acts."

4. Make a fair attempt to understand Israeli policies

If you have an issue with Israeli policy, take the time to understand it and why it was implemented. For example, Israel’s security barrier. Where is it? Why was it placed there? What legal processes did it go through? What were the results on both sides?

5. Speak from a place of knowledge, accuracy and context

Whether Israel or another topic, you should never debate when unfamiliar with the basics. Take a moment to look up what’s going on, read a wide variety of sources, understand different perspectives, and make sure you get your facts right. Check out the history – it’s rarely one-sided. When you speak from ignorance you make grave errors and things seem overly simple.

6. Work towards solutions, not Israel’s destruction

If you seek to avoid claims of being antisemitic, avoid advocating for the destruction of the state home to the world’s largest population of Jews. (Refer to tip #1.) Determine whether your words feed into the incessant blaming of Israel or unreasonable demands that Israelis put themselves at risk, or whether they help advance the cause of peace by suggesting just solutions and realistic changes.

7. Recognize the conflict is not one-sided

Nothing is black and white. Imagining one party to be uniformly evil and the other as helpless victims is simplistic and unhelpful. Both Israelis and Palestinians have experienced pain. Both desire self determination. Wanting peace and security for Palestinians shouldn’t negate wanting it for Israelis Even if you truly believe that Israel is responsible for the situation, acting as if Israelis have no legitimate concerns and fears denies reality and characterizes Israelis as unreasonable, uniformly warmongering, and feeds into concerted attempts to destroy Israel.

8. Avoid known racist tropes when speaking of Israel or Jews

Words such as hypnotized, cabal, Jewish money, globalists, and many more have long been used to discredit Jews. Avoid them. If, for example, you wish to talk about Jewish influence on politics through organisations like AIPAC, carefully appraise your use of language and consider how much influence AIPAC really has compared to other organisations. (Hint: AIPAC’s “Jewish money” is only the second-biggest pro-Israel lobby in America. The biggest is actually CUFI, a Christian organization.)

9. Recognize Jewish indigeneity to the land.

Jews come from Judea. They lived in Israel for thousands of years. Denying the connection between Jews and Israel is antisemitism.

10. Don’t blame Israel for the world’s ills

If you’re tempted to blame the world’s ills on Israel, you’re exhibiting not only a lack of knowledge of world affairs, but demonstrable anti semitism. Portraying Israel as the cause of all that’s wrong in the world doesn’t lend itself to open, constructive debate."







« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 09:47:32 am by Rue »
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Offline Granny

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #63 on: May 19, 2019, 02:47:53 pm »
Go away. I'm trying to sleep here!
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Offline Omni

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #64 on: May 19, 2019, 02:56:42 pm »
Go away. I'm trying to sleep here!
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Hey those lengthy screeds could help you fall asleep.
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Offline Granny

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #65 on: May 19, 2019, 03:17:03 pm »
Hey those lengthy screeds could help you fall asleep.

Ya, I think that's the problem. Lol
« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 03:43:02 pm by Granny »
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Offline Granny

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #66 on: May 19, 2019, 05:32:44 pm »
I did not "word bomb".

You've word bombed the whole thread, Rue.
7,437 words to be precise.

Now I wonder if Google has a 'vicious personal insult counter' because you'd be off the scale on that.

I won't respond to any of the content of your vicious attack screeds, of course.

My position is simple:
*Israel is not above the law.
*Palestinians have a right to live free of occupation, degradation, land theft, eviction, killing of civilians including children, and the many other ways that Israel is Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
https://www.ohchr.org/en/professionalinterest/pages/crimeofgenocide.aspx

*I have a right to present views and information from Independent Jewish Voices Canada without vicious personal attacks from propaganda-philes.
If Canadians can't speak up in defense of Palestinians without being personally attacked in a vicious manner with false accusations of anti-Semitism and incessant word-bombing ... If we have to think twice and then decide to be silent as we will be viciously and relentlessly attacked ... I have to wonder ...
 Is Israel  running Canada ... or New York?

You don't help your cause, Rue. Your disrespectful, duplicitous and indecent behaviour does not reflect well on Israel and is more likely to hardens anti-Israel views.
7,437 words ... that accomplish exactly the opposite of your supposed intent of supporting Israel.

Hmmm ...

Hamas could take a lesson from you in how to incite anti-Israel activism in Canada ... or New York.

Now don't blow a gasket. Take a walk and think about how you can actually be helpful. You have it in you. You just need to channel it more effectively.

Edit for length, personal insults, false accusations, twisted and duplicitous interpretations ... oh, and make sure you're not attacking someone personally  for something they quoted but did not say ...etc etc ... the usual editing stuff for persuasive writing ... to make sure you're not accomplishing the opposite. 


« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 05:37:56 pm by Granny »
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Offline Pinus or Vid or...?????

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #67 on: May 19, 2019, 06:19:17 pm »
You've word bombed the whole thread, Rue.
7,437 words to be precise.

Now I wonder if Google has a 'vicious personal insult counter' because you'd be off the scale on that.

I won't respond to any of the content of your vicious attack screeds, of course.

My position is simple:
*Israel is not above the law.
*Palestinians have a right to live free of occupation, degradation, land theft, eviction, killing of civilians including children, and the many other ways that Israel is Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
https://www.ohchr.org/en/professionalinterest/pages/crimeofgenocide.aspx

*I have a right to present views and information from Independent Jewish Voices Canada without vicious personal attacks from propaganda-philes.
If Canadians can't speak up in defense of Palestinians without being personally attacked in a vicious manner with false accusations of anti-Semitism and incessant word-bombing ... If we have to think twice and then decide to be silent as we will be viciously and relentlessly attacked ... I have to wonder ...
 Is Israel  running Canada ... or New York?

You don't help your cause, Rue. Your disrespectful, duplicitous and indecent behaviour does not reflect well on Israel and is more likely to hardens anti-Israel views.
7,437 words ... that accomplish exactly the opposite of your supposed intent of supporting Israel.

Hmmm ...

Hamas could take a lesson from you in how to incite anti-Israel activism in Canada ... or New York.

Now don't blow a gasket. Take a walk and think about how you can actually be helpful. You have it in you. You just need to channel it more effectively.

Edit for length, personal insults, false accusations, twisted and duplicitous interpretations ... oh, and make sure you're not attacking someone personally  for something they quoted but did not say ...etc etc ... the usual editing stuff for persuasive writing ... to make sure you're not accomplishing the opposite.

Ironic...
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Offline waldo

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #68 on: May 19, 2019, 07:48:13 pm »
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Offline Rue

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #69 on: May 19, 2019, 08:46:56 pm »
To the readers of this thread I will now ignore Granny for obvious reasons.

It is unfortunate she  has chosen to take my comments on a personal level and so engage back on a personal level.

It is also unfortunate Omni and Waldo came on this thread to bait me and contribute nothing to the thread .

In fact I  brought it to the moderator' s attention and he did nothing so all I can do like you is ignore them.



You have me mistaken with an eagle. I only come to eat your carcass.
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Offline Pinus or Vid or...?????

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #70 on: May 19, 2019, 08:53:40 pm »
The ignore feature is broken.  May as well relax and watch the Raptors lose in double OT
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Offline Granny

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #72 on: May 20, 2019, 08:34:55 am »
This thread is experiencing what many people and groups experience who speak up for Palestinians and speak out against Israel's actions.

FIRST-EVER: 40+ JEWISH GROUPS WORLDWIDE OPPOSE EQUATING ANTISEMITISM WITH CRITICISM OF ISRAEL
https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/first-ever-40-jewish-groups-worldwide-oppose-equating-antisemitism-with-criticism-of-israel/

As social justice organizations from around the world, we write this letter with growing alarm regarding the targeting of organizations that support Palestinian rights in general and the nonviolent Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement, in particular. These attacks too often take the form of cynical and false accusations of antisemitism that dangerously conflate anti-Jewish racism with opposition to Israel’s policies and system of occupation and apartheid.
...
From our own histories we are all too aware of the dangers of increasingly fascistic and openly racist governments and political parties. The rise in antisemitic discourse and attacks worldwide is part of that broader trend.

At times like this, it is more important than ever to distinguish between the hostility to or prejudice against Jews on the one hand and legitimate critiques of Israeli policies and system of injustice on the other.

-----
Anti-Semitism and racism in general are currently emboldened by Trump's endorsement of gangs of  "very fine people" ... aka white supremacists.
 
At the same time, Israel's stifling of Palestinians' human rights is a legitimate concern to many.
 
Conflating those two as "anti-Semitic" is antithetical to progress toward real solutions in Israel-Palestine.

I don't have the experience or words myself to speak up for Palestinians and speak out against Israeli policies and actions, so I am pleased to learn that there  is a Canadian group, Independent Jewish Voices Canada, advocating on these issues. They are also connecting with similar Jewish organizations in the US and elsewhere, and with Palestinian activists.

I don't belong to and I don't speak for any organization.
I use their information to inform myself, and I post it to inform others.

And I will continue to do so.

I won't be silenced by accusations of anti-Semitism, and I won't be lumped with white supremacists, whom I have spent plenty of time opposing in discussions, at street rallies, and in communication with political leaders and police:  'Inciting and promoting hatred'  against whole groups of people is a crime in Canada, a law that police are increasingly being encouraged and pressured by anti-racism activists to apply to all of those who foment racial, ethnic and religious hatred online or in public.
(Goodbye Kevin Johnston!! Enjoy your financial audit, Faith Goldy!! Hey Paul Fromm ... you're banned from the US? Ahahahahaha!)

I'm just a free-thinking, free-speaking old hippy believing that a better world is possible without hatred.
I also believe that those political powers who sow hatred and division among people only to enhance their own power can be brought into line when people work across those divisions to resolve differences, develop and present solutions.
In order to do so, the voices that have often been silenced must be able to speak up, here and elsewhere.

Tomorrow in Toronto, IJV will stand in protest of unconditional support for Israel that fails to consider the oppression of Palestinian views and lives.
I wish them well.
I wish them peace.
And I hope these cross-cultural efforts on this issue can continue to be aired in respect.

(538 words ... ok a bit long ... I'll take my lumps for that... but I want to add just a bit more ... lol)

As a professional, I once had reason to delve into Israeli educational materials developed to address the needs of children who had spent much of their young lives in Nazi concentration camps where self-preservation required that they not speak and not think.
The neural and psychological effects of prolonged oppression and cultural deprivation are deep wounds. The efforts and success of Israeli educators to draw these children out, tap their true potential, were brilliant, heroic and world-reknowned. I was and I remain awed by the strength of the Jewish people who established and supported Israel, and by their determination to succeed.

True success as a people, a nation, doesn't come at the expense of others: Canada is not a 'success' because our growth came at the expense of Indigenous Peoples. We can't take back the evils done to Indigenous Peoples and especially their children.
Like Israel, Canada has compromised its integrity by dispossessing and oppressing those who lived here when we arrived.
We are in the same process of trying (and failing) to recognize and respect the rights of those with whom we share the land. There are those in Canada, and Israel, who boldly insist that those 'others' have no rights.
And there are also those who who understand that 'success' at the expense of others is not success at all, but utter failure as human beings.

I'm not a fan of organized religions. I do not deify historic texts that glorify the exploits of one group of human beings subjugating another. I believe that religion divides people into groups of warring factions that serve only the sociopathic impulses of money and power.
I'm not sure why I added that. Lol
I think all efforts to divide people against each other are self-destructive to humanity.
I think all people who organize themselves to correct injustices are the stronger, better face of humanity.

(Ok, I'm pushing close to 1000 words, but still less than a third of Rue's longest effort. Lol)
« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 11:23:27 am by Granny »

Offline Pinus or Vid or...?????

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #73 on: May 20, 2019, 12:50:04 pm »
No matter what Israel does, Jews will always be attacked in the streets of European countries for Israel's actions. The Muslims of Europe have made no distinction between Jews and Israel. Antisemitism has been on the increase for the last 20 years, and the blame could be put on the internet and social media, as Muslims outnumber Jews by a ratio of 100 to 1.  Technology is a double edged sword, and unfortunately when Muslim communities in Europe and elsewhere are free to converse with Arab nations, hatred of Jews in general will always be an issue, and it influences Muslims in non-Muslim countries to hate Jews in general, regardless of what Israel does in its occupied territories.

The blueprints of hatred towards Jews were laid centuries ago, and the Arabs have adopted literature and propaganda from the Third Reich as fact. Unlike other nations who are repressing their respective ethnic groups (China, Russia, Indonesia, etc), the Jews will always have to endure the brunt of this hatred since they have been perennial scapegoats for thousands of years. The only thing the Jewish people could possibly do to end the hatred of Israel, is to abandon the Holy Land, and give Israel to the Arabs.
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Offline Granny

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #74 on: May 20, 2019, 03:31:47 pm »
No matter what Israel does, Jews will always be attacked in the streets of European countries for Israel's actions. The Muslims of Europe have made no distinction between Jews and Israel. Antisemitism has been on the increase for the last 20 years, and the blame could be put on the internet and social media, as Muslims outnumber Jews by a ratio of 100 to 1.  Technology is a double edged sword, and unfortunately when Muslim communities in Europe and elsewhere are free to converse with Arab nations, hatred of Jews in general will always be an issue, and it influences Muslims in non-Muslim countries to hate Jews in general, regardless of what Israel does in its occupied territories.

The blueprints of hatred towards Jews were laid centuries ago, and the Arabs have adopted literature and propaganda from the Third Reich as fact. Unlike other nations who are repressing their respective ethnic groups (China, Russia, Indonesia, etc), the Jews will always have to endure the brunt of this hatred since they have been perennial scapegoats for thousands of years.
None of that is relevant to the topic of this thread. As you state, anti-Semitism has existed for thousands of years, so it is not a phenomenon solely attributable to the formation and actions of Israel against Palestinians, which is the topic of this thread.

Quote
The only thing the Jewish people could possibly do to end the hatred of Israel, is to abandon the Holy Land, and give Israel to the Arabs.
It's unlikely that would end the anti-Semitism you describe above. I think you are conflating anti-Semitism with criticism of Israel's actions toward Palestinians, which is not anti-Semitism.
Nor is it "hatred of Israel".

What I and I think many others are feeling is disappointment in Israel's actions because it subjects Palestinians to occupation, dehumanization and intolerable conditions of living.

Perhaps it was too much to expect that Israelis would make extra efforts not to subject others to the same degradation and dehumanization that was inflicted on them. Nonetheless, that is the expectation and the requirement in law.

What I find helpful in IJV's posted information is that they can and do distinguish between anti-Semitism - which clearly exists before and beyond Israel - and criticism of Israel's actions.
Two separate issues.
Please don't conflate them again.
The topic of this thread is Israel-Palestine.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 03:38:32 pm by Granny »
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