Author Topic: International Jewish Voices  (Read 2123 times)

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Offline TimG

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2019, 09:59:03 pm »
IMO if you're an activist and want to help that's ok but when soldiers start showing up I'd take their threats seriously and GTFO and go help somewhere else, even if I didn't agree with it, who the hell wants to be a martyr?
Palestinian activists often deliberately stage confrontations with Israeli soldiers to generate propaganda. I have seen complete videos that show Israeli soldiers acting completely professionally only have to it twisted into something nefarious by activist using selective edits.
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2019, 10:19:25 pm »
Palestinian activists often deliberately stage confrontations with Israeli soldiers to generate propaganda. I have seen complete videos that show Israeli soldiers acting completely professionally only have to it twisted into something nefarious by activist using selective edits.

I don't doubt that.  I mean OP article has the headline with alarming words "Jewish-American activists beaten and detained by Israeli soldiers in West Bank".  But I don't see any evidence from skimming the article of anyone beaten.  I mean the military used sound grenades, that's pretty non-violent.

Again from the article "Those forced to the ground and dragged into military vehicles included several who appeared to be rabbis and several elderly members of the group". They were arrested after a long warning, what did they expect?  A hug?  Rabbis and the elderly aren't immune to arrest just because.

The article is obviously written with a bias to cast the military as the "bad guys" and the arrested as victims. Writing a news article with a slant is poor journalism.
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Offline Pinus or Vid or...?????

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2019, 10:23:15 pm »
IMO if you're an activist and want to help that's ok but when soldiers start showing up I'd take their threats seriously and GTFO and go help somewhere else, even if I didn't agree with it, who the hell wants to be a martyr?

Can you imagine these protesters coming into the Tibet region of China, and protesting? Or going into the Crimea and protesting the Russian occupation? Or how about civilians landing in Guantanamo Bay, and holding demonstrations against the USA for their treatment of prisoners in the internment camps?

It would never happen.
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Offline Pinus or Vid or...?????

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2019, 10:26:51 pm »
Palestinian activists often deliberately stage confrontations with Israeli soldiers to generate propaganda. I have seen complete videos that show Israeli soldiers acting completely professionally only have to it twisted into something nefarious by activist using selective edits.

The Palestinian groups like Hamas and Hezbollah often hold their bases, especially when planning attacks against Israel in strategic places, such as in Hospitals, Day Care centers, and other areas where vulnerable people are living. Its propaganda, so when Israel learns of terrorist activities, and launches strikes against the targets, it's inevitable that Hospitals, Schools, and Day Cares will suffer damage.
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Offline Granny

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2019, 09:17:35 am »
From an IJVCanada Facebook post:
"Yesterday I was arrested with sixteen others for helping Palestinians fill potholes in an old dirt track that is the only link to the outside world for isolated, endangered communities under constant violent attack by settlers. (Read more below.)

TODAY I AM WRITING TO ASK YOU TO DO THE SINGLE MOST CONCRETE THING that I think Canadians can at this time to support the Palestinian struggle: sign the Parliamentary petition to the Minister of National Revenue to revoke the charitable status of the Jewish National Fund Canada.

The JNF acquires land in Palestine for the exclusive use of Jews. It overtly and blatantly discriminates against Palestinians. It demolishes entire villages. And, it raises about $30 million per year in Canada as tax deductible donations.


The JNF consistently violates the Canada Tax Act in substantive ways. That has been reported to the Canada Revenue Agency for forty years. The CRA has done nothing. I am one of four Canadians who jointly filed a formal, legal complaint with the CRA a year and half ago with 85 pages of documentation, mostly from the JNF's own literature. We have heard nothing even though we met personally with the director of enforcement of the charities division.

In January this year, Independent Jewish Voices launched a Parliamentary petition to the Minister of National Revenue to audit the JNF and revoke its charitable status if it is found in violation. The petition is open to be signed only until May 9, just before noon. After that, NDP Critic for National Revenue, MP Pierre-Luc Dussealt will submit the petition to Parliament and the government will be obliged to respond. The more signatures it has, the more seriously it will be taken.

We set a goal of 3,000 signatures and now are up to 2,459. We need your help in getting another 541 in the next five days. I think that is achievable if we work together.

First, would you please go to www.stopthejnf.ca and follow the links to sign the petition. It is simple and easy. And, it will make a difference. It's important.
...
The situation here in Palestine is dire and getting worse. I have been with people here day after day who are directly suffering in more ways than I can begin to tell you. It's all around. I imagine you know this already. We can put the brakes on the JNF. If we do, it will make a small difference, but it will also encourage Palestinians and others around the world to take other concrete steps. And, it will directly challenge the until-now-overwhelming dominance of the false Zionist narrative in Canadian politics. I hope you will sign the petition and circulate this widely.
...
David Mivasair"
« Last Edit: May 05, 2019, 03:57:48 pm by Granny »

Offline TimG

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2019, 09:37:40 am »
The JNF acquires land in Palestine for the exclusive use of Jews. It overtly and blatantly discriminates against Palestinians. It demolishes entire villages.
Given the history of anti-Israeli activists there is no reason to believe this claim has any connection to the truth.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2019, 09:43:12 am by TimG »
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Offline Granny

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2019, 03:54:12 pm »
Given the history of anti-Israeli activists there is no reason to believe this claim has any connection to the truth.
It's not that difficult to check:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_National_Fund

"T'ruah has expressed concerns that the JNF is not transparent about where their funds go and that the organization may be subsidizing projects in West Bank settlements.[62] The organization's chief executive later acknowledged that JNF does fund projects within settlements.[63] A review of their tax filing from 2014 led Rabbi Jill Jacobs of T'ruah to estimate that about $600,000 of the $27.2 million in grants by JNF-USA went to support settlements.[64]

Israeli lawmakers have sought, unsuccessfully, to allow the State Comptroller to examine the books of the organization to determine whether the group's funds were being spent appropriately.[65]
...
The JNF stipulates that only Jews can buy, mortgage or lease JNF land. Article 23 of the JNF lease states that the lessee must pay compensation to the JNF if this stipulation is violated."

And JNF is in trouble in Canada for funding the Israeli military too:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/jnf-charity-donations-1.4949072

« Last Edit: May 06, 2019, 12:29:12 pm by Granny »
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Offline Rue

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2019, 11:25:22 am »
Tell me Granny do you know why the JNF came about and why it does that? Of course not. Go find out why. In the middle East there is no separation of sharia law from governments which means no Jew in any Arab country is allowed to own land. Likewise no Jew in Europe was allowed to purchase land because of the prevailing laws that were influenced by Christian religion. Let me repeat that JEWS CAN NOT OWN LAND IN ANY NATION OF THE MIDDLE EAST.  They can not apply for citizenship in any Muslim country let alone in the Middle East. Jordan which was created as a Palestinain state illegally from 90% of Palestine by the British does not allow Jewish citizenship or any Jew to own land.

Interestingly though you find it unfair or single out the fact Israel had to establish the JNF as a direct response to this discrimination.

Tell me because you claim to be the progressive leftist not me, are you against affirmative action or other measures people take to counter discrmination against themselves?

Why is it when a Jew liberates themselves from being treated unfairly and uses a state to protect its people and guarantee them a place to live when no one else won't, you sngle that out as if its unfair?

When all the homes and property were confiscated by Muslims and Christians from Jews where were you? Were you marching for Jews? Where was the world for thousands of years? Why did it take a holocaust to force the issue? Why is it  even after the holocaust the very nations that fought Nazi Germany protected its Nazis when they moved to the Middle East nations and ran their governments?

Where were you in 1948 when the British sided with neo Nazis to lead the Arab Alliance against Israel?

Where were you when righteous gentiles denounced what Britain did and volunteered to fight with Jews?

The fund you criticize came about to house and give a future to discriminated against Jews.

Maybe you need to take the time to find out the history of Israel and not from a trendy leftist perspective that ignores the time line and inter-connected events and simply takes up and assumes Jews came from nowhere for no reason other than to exploit innocent Palestinians. Jews were and are as much Palestinian as any Muslim who claims to  be one. They have every right to own land in Israel precisely because they are not allowed to own any in any Middle East country.

Do you challenge Sharia law nations? Do you even know what dhimmitude is?

« Last Edit: May 15, 2019, 07:39:01 pm by Rue »
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Offline Granny

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2019, 01:48:21 pm »
Rue,
This thread is my experiment to see whether reasonable people who recognize that Palestinians are under siege can have an intelligent discussion about that.

Without Israeli anti-Muslim propaganda trolling, please.
I think Independent Jewish Voices CANADA have a right to be heard too.

As for the Jewish National Fund funding illegal Israeli settlements and the Israeli military ...
The JNF consistently violates the Canada Tax Act in substantive ways. That has been reported to the Canada Revenue Agency for forty years. The CRA has done nothing.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2019, 02:42:58 pm by Granny »
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Offline ?Impact

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2019, 04:07:22 pm »
Why is it when a Jew liberates themselves from being treated unfairly and uses a state to protect its people and guarantee them a place to live when no one else won't, you sngle thta out as if its unfair?

When all the homes and property were confiscated by Muslims and Christians from Jews where were you? Were you marching for Jews? Where was the world for thousands of years? Why did it take a holocaust to force the issue?

Agreed there is a terrible history of Jews (and others) being persecuted for millennia. The main turning point was WWII, and we must continue to speak out against persecution. That includes persecution of Jews, and persecution by Jews.
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Offline wilber

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2019, 10:27:11 am »
Rue,
This thread is my experiment to see whether reasonable people who recognize that Palestinians are under siege can have an intelligent discussion about that.

Without Israeli anti-Muslim propaganda trolling, please.
I think Independent Jewish Voices CANADA have a right to be heard too.

As for the Jewish National Fund funding illegal Israeli settlements and the Israeli military ...
The JNF consistently violates the Canada Tax Act in substantive ways. That has been reported to the Canada Revenue Agency for forty years. The CRA has done nothing.

Is the discrimination against Palestinians by their Arab neighbours up for discussion as well? The only Arab country to ever integrate Palestinian refugees is Jordan.
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2019, 01:56:27 pm »
If Jews are guilty of ethnic cleaning, which they may be in a way, someone tell me how many Jews can be found in Saudi Arabia or Iran etc?  Besides in prisons or in some kind of diplomatic capacity, i believe the answer is around zero. 
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Offline Pinus or Vid or...?????

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2019, 02:16:50 pm »
If Jews are guilty of ethnic cleaning, which they may be in a way, someone tell me how many Jews can be found in Saudi Arabia or Iran etc?  Besides in prisons or in some kind of diplomatic capacity, i believe the answer is around zero.

There are no Jews in Saudi Arabia.  Jews may even be banned from entering Saudi Arabia.  As for Iran, there are 15,000 Jews remaining, and they have been treated relatively well, compared to other Arab countries with very few Jews left (usually under 500 per country).
« Last Edit: May 12, 2019, 02:22:03 pm by Vid »
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Offline Granny

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2019, 12:34:14 am »

Interestingly though you find it unfair or single out the fact Israel had to establish the JNF as a direct response to this discrimination.
I have only noted the concerns of IJV re the illegal actions of JNF actions in the illegal settlements, and in donating money raised here to the Israeli military in violation of Canadian law.
Quote
Why is it when a Jew liberates themselves from being treated unfairly and uses a state to protect its people and guarantee them a place to live when no one else won't, you sngle thta out as if its unfair?

Persecution of Jews was unfair.
Persecution of Palestinians by Israelis is also unfair.

Offline Rue

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Re: International Jewish Voices
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2019, 09:30:05 am »
The JNF is attacked by trendy left wingers as it is seen as a tool to colonize the West Bank by Israel.

The majority of accusations about JNF financing  are in regards to these projects:

1. Amphitheatre in Shilo – NIS 2 million
 
2. Infrastructure projects in Ariel – NIS 4.5 million
 
3. Central Park in Avnei Hefetz [near Tulkarem] – NIS 2.5 million
 
4. Promenade in Gush Ezion [south of Jerusalem]: NIS 250,000. Will be called “JNF Promenade.”
 
5. Promenade in Kfar Adumin [East of Jerusalem]: almost NIS 1.5 million
 
6. Bike Lane in the Mateh Binyamin Regional Council: NIS 1.7 million
 
7. Agriculture farm in Eitam: NIS 2.5 million
 
8. A park and observation point in Mitzpe Yericho [near Jericho]: NIS 600,000
 
9. Historical site in Rosh Tzurim [near Bethlehem]: NIS 400,000
 
10. Habanim Park in Hebron: NIS 700,000
 
11. Infrastructure work in Alon Moreh’s yeshiva [near Nablus]: NIS 300,000
 
12. Public ground in Shavei Shomron: NIS 350,000
 
13. Public ground in Har Bracha [near Nablus]: almost NIS 1 million
 
14. Kikar Park in Beit El [near Ramallah]: NIS 120,000

I will not debate with Granny on this thread what the legal issues are in regards to who owns what land on the West Bank. Clearly Granny like many believes no Israeli should be on the West Bank, period.

However the issues are far more complex than simply telling Israeli Jews go back to pre 1967 Israel. Its easy for Granny to dictate that and assume that.

She does not live next door to Hamas on one side in Gaza ad the PA and its terror cells on the West Bank on the other, or next door to Lebanon, Syria and Jordan nor does she know what that means. She only sees Palestinians as being under siege.

In her script she ignores the PA and Hamas are in fact in a declared state of war with Israel to remove it as a JEWISH state. Her script does not discuss that every day Israelis are attacked from Gaza even though they withdrew from Gaza years ago, including what is called arson kites that destry land and homes. Her script does not account for how the JNF is reforesting areas of pre 1967 Israel burned and destroyed by Hamas in its constant attacks.

Her script portrays one bad side, one good side in a conflict. It does not for one moment engage in context and try understand Israel does not live in a vacuum and if it leaves the West Bank the PA has said it will NEVER STOP until it retakes all of Israel, Jordan and the West bank and turns them into a Sharia Law Palestinian state. It also has defended terror attacks on Israeli civilians calling them reasonable in press releases.That is the same position as Hamas only Hamas openly calls for war and terror while  the PA plays media games. On the one hand it has what it claims are not terrorist political representatives who deny they are terrorists to the Western Press but then in their own Asembly or when speaking to their own citizens on radio or tv call for a war to destroy Israel. It also has terrorist cells which it claims are its "military" wing.

I doubt Granny knows why the JNF was started, what it actually finances and has financed. I doubt she has ever been to the Middle East to understand just how small the area of land is in dispute and so what the actual  terrorist security issues involved are or how the PA and Hamas are as dangerous to their own civilians and Jordan, Egypt and  Lebanon as they are to Israel.

What I do see are double standards from Granny. If she posts one sided articles with no comments, that is not trolling but if people disagree with her on this forum she says they are part of her experiment and trollers.

She claims being anti Israeli is not anti semitic but being anti Palestinian is anti Muslim.

She will discuss no doubt until doomsday Jews have no right to live on the West Bank but believe Muslims can live wherever they want.

Its only with Jews, Granny seems to have a standard where they can live.

As for the accusations the JNF funds the IDF, in fact what happened was prior to 2016 it funded a recreation centre and other recreation centres for youth to encourage fitness so when they were called up for mandatory reserve duty in the Armed Forces which includes 2 years mandatory service then being in the reserves until the age of 65, they would be ready.

The financing was indirect because it was for recreation but it was turned into a claim it financed the military. No JNF money was used on weapons of course or given to the military budget and anything remotely construed as military donations was ended in 2016 but hey why not flog that issue.

I get it- trendy leftists are incited by what they think is a black and white cause with bad Jewish Israelis  oppressors and good Palestinian victims.

The fact is the  definition of Palestinian the PA and Hamas use excludes Jews . The definition of Israeli includes Muslims and Christians, Bahaiis, Druze, Beduin Arabs, etc.

So let Granny try grasp the basic issue that the definition being advanced of a Palestinian and Palestinian rights is as discriminatory as anything she thinks she sees or believes about Israel and its based on religion and always has been.

At the pith and substance of the conflict is the Sharia Law belief that only Muslims can form countries and own land NOT Jews-something Granny will not acknowledge-and is why I said, she should go read about what dhimmitude is before she assumes she knows the place of Jews.

 Israel created itself as a Jewish state and created a national fund to finance its state as a direct response to being held down as inferiors. It had no choice. It was a direct response to being treated as an inferior people with no rights.

There are 3 areas on the West Bank. Area C is the only one "Jewish" Israelis are allowed. Arab i.e. MUSLIM  Israelis or non Jewish Palestinians can live in areas A or B which are exclusively reserved for non Jews and no Jew is allowed to live in. Oh you bet its separation. It came about precisely because Muslims would not live side by side with Jews and forced a war which established greenlines in 1967 which trendy leftists believe are the borders of Israel when the same international law they quote to call Israel's settlements on the West Bank illegal can not define that green line as legal because no Arab country to this day will recognize them.

Israel is the only country in the world surrounded by countries that do not recognize it or any borders for it, or its right to exist. She assumes the West Bank which has never been a county is a non Jewish one.


Granny's perspective comes from someone who takes for granted she can live wherever she wants and she is  part of  the majority religion.

Granny's perspective  as to Israel is as colonialist-imperialist-oppressive  as anything she accuses Israel of being. She still defines the conflict as one where its about Jews who don't know their place in the world.

I again repeat the solution to this conflict will come about with Israelis and Palestinians not outside know it all  patronizing elitists agitate tension and presume to tell either side what to do.

As well for someone who claims criticizing Israel is not about criticizing Jews why does Granny think when someone Jewish protests on the West Bank, their Jewishness is relevant?  Why is it she is so quick to insist this is not about Jews but her very headline on the thread made it about Jews?

She and many non Jews seem to think the moment a Jew as opposed to a non Jew criticizes Israel it has more meaning. Why? By doing that, she turns the discussion about Israeli state policies into a Jewish issue an yet creates another double standard.









« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 11:10:12 am by Rue »
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