Author Topic: Gaza Border Cutting - Hamas the Provocatur or Israel the Deadly Bully  (Read 420 times)

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Offline Spectre of Graham

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Not the common definition.  It can, and usually does, include killing.

the mass expulsion or killing of members of an unwanted ethnic or religious group in a society.


Can you tell us of an ethnic cleansing event that didnít include any killing?

Well, maybe some Arab states have kicked out all the Jews without any killing, i dunno.  Genocide vs ethnic cleaning, one is just killing to exterminate, the other is forceful removal that often includes killing.  Quebec tomorrow could say "let's kick out all the Muslims" and not kill any.  That would be ethnic cleansing too.

If
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Offline Granny

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Genocide vs ethnic cleaning, one is just killing to exterminate, the other is forceful removal that often includes killing. 
https://www.ohchr.org/en/professionalinterest/pages/crimeofgenocide.aspx
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.


Ethnic cleansing is genocide.


Offline Pinus or Vid or...?????

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https://www.ohchr.org/en/professionalinterest/pages/crimeofgenocide.aspx
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.


Ethnic cleansing is genocide.

It's highly unlikely what Israel is doing to the Palestinians is considered "ethnic cleansing." Israel has not committed "genocide" and just the notion that some people believe this, is an insult and a slap in the face to the true victims of genocide.

Again I ask the inevitable question. Why is Israel routinely singled out for their treatment of the Palestinians, when similar events get almost no condemnation. China occupying Tibet, and their persecution of the people of Tibet.  Russia illegally annexing the Crimea in the Ukraine. Indonesia's treatment of people in East Timor.  The USA as far as I know, has never made amends for their treatment of Native Americans. Even legitimate examples of ethnic cleansing such as Sudan's campaign to eradicate the South Sudanese Christian hardly gets mentioned.  There have been no sanctions against Turkey, even though the committed genocide against the Armenians.  No sanctions against Iraq for their persecution of the Kurdish population.  I cannot list all campaigns of ethnic cleansing over the past century as the list would go on for pages and pages.

Why is Israel put to a different standard than any other country? 
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Offline Granny

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It's highly unlikely what Israel is doing to the Palestinians is considered "ethnic cleansing." Israel has not committed "genocide" and just the notion that some people believe this, is an insult and a slap in the face to the true victims of genocide.
Well if not ethnic cleansing, genocide, what is Israel's strategy to get rid of Palestinians?

Quote
Again I ask the inevitable question. Why is Israel routinely singled out for their treatment of the Palestinians,
Because the thread is about Gaza.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2019, 05:21:08 pm by Granny »

Offline Pinus or Vid or...?????

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Because the thread is about Gaza.

Gaza is officially part of the Palestinian state.
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Offline ?Impact

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Why is Israel put to a different standard than any other country?

It is not. Your argument is like the bank robber claiming he should get away with the crime because someone else murdered.
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Offline JBG

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The way Jews are treated throughout Europe in regards to the Israel/Palestine issue, I sometimes wish Israel would legitimately go into the West Bank and kick all the Palestinians out.
Unfortunately, the Arab "fighting" tactics, such as suicide bombing, car rammings, knifings, and the like may force just such a result. One thing is clear; the Arabs are not actively seeking a permanent two-state solution. They want simply to win.
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Offline waldo

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One thing is clear; the Arabs are not actively seeking a permanent two-state solution. They want simply to win.

just who are your... arabs?

Apr 01,2019 - Commitment to 2-state, just solution for Palestinians renewed at Arab summit

Offline Pinus or Vid or...?????

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It is not. Your argument is like the bank robber claiming he should get away with the crime because someone else murdered.

Can you elaborate?
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Offline Spectre of Graham

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https://www.ohchr.org/en/professionalinterest/pages/crimeofgenocide.aspx
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
...
Ethnic cleansing is genocide.

Key words "destroy" and "destruction", as in to annihilate, as in to wipe from the face of the planet.  Ethnic cleaning does not necessarily have that intent.  The intent of ethnic cleaning is to remove an ethnic group from a geographic area, ie: to cleanse them from an area. That's why they are 2 separate and specific terms used in international relations.  You can have ethnic cleansing with or without genocide.

Killing a group in war also doesn't necessarily equate to genocide.  What matters is the intent of the killing.

Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial and/or religious groups from a given territory by a more powerful ethnic group, often with the intent of making it ethnically homogeneous.
...
Academic discourse considers both genocide and ethnic cleansing to exist in a spectrum of assaults on nations or religio-ethnic groups. Ethnic cleansing is similar to forced deportation or population transfer whereas genocide is the intentional murder of part or all of a particular ethnic, racial, religious, or national group. While ethnic cleansing and genocide may share the same goal and the acts used to perpetrate both crimes may often resemble each other, ethnic cleansing is intended to displace a persecuted population from a given territory, while genocide is intended to destroy a population.[22]

Some academics consider genocide as a subset of "murderous ethnic cleansing".[23] Thus, these concepts are different, but related...[/quote]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing#Genocide
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Offline Granny

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One thing is clear; the Arabs are not actively seeking a permanent two-state solution. They want simply to win.

They just want to survive would be more accurate. Pushed into smaller and smaller areas with limited resources and services, survival is tenous. 
Resistance is to be expected.
 
https://ifamericaknew.org/images/FourMaps2.png

Offline Pinus or Vid or...?????

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They just want to survive would be more accurate. Pushed into smaller and smaller areas with limited resources and services, survival is tenous. 
Resistance is to be expected.
 
https://ifamericaknew.org/images/FourMaps2.png

Yes, the Arab countries should be ashamed of themselves for refusing to allow Palestinians out of the horrible living conditions of the West Bank and Gaza.  One would think these bordering countries would be more humane, considering they share the same culture, language and religion.  Israel is no angel, but they are a tiny country who should have been given the entire area of Palestine, outlined in the Balfour Declaration of 1917.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2019, 10:30:05 pm by Vid »
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Offline Granny

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Not the common definition.  It can, and usually does, include killing.

the mass expulsion or killing of members of an unwanted ethnic or religious group in a society.


Can you tell us of an ethnic cleansing event that didnít include any killing?
UN  Convention on Genocide

Article I

The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.

Article II

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article III

The following acts shall be punishable:

(a) Genocide;

(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;

(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;

(d) Attempt to commit genocide;

(e) Complicity in genocide.

Offline Pinus or Vid or...?????

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UN  Convention on Genocide

Article I

The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.

Article II

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article III

The following acts shall be punishable:

(a) Genocide;

(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;

(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;

(d) Attempt to commit genocide;

(e) Complicity in genocide.

Sadly the UN has no teeth anymore in dealing with many issues. More and more countries blatantly ignore UN resolutions, including the US, Russia, China, etc.
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Offline Spectre of Graham

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They just want to survive would be more accurate. Pushed into smaller and smaller areas with limited resources and services, survival is tenous. 
Resistance is to be expected.

I agree, resistance is to be expected, including occasional violence, and many just want to survive and live normally.  My problem is that there's quite a few Arabs in the region, including governments and political groups, who want all the Jews dead and would do it if they could.

Both sides have numerous things they have done wrong, but also Israelis generally don't wish genocide on Palestinians/Arabs.  Note: this doesn't mean I'm taking a side or support one group over another.
Good medicine turns poisonous when the dose is too high.