Author Topic: Climate Change  (Read 29048 times)

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Offline Boges

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #1170 on: August 18, 2021, 12:17:26 pm »
And even brakes might not be that expensive, since (I think) they use regenerative braking to convert momentum to electricity to charge the battery (i.e. less use of brake pads, etc.)

Yeah. To the point brakes may even be under used with EVs.

Offline wilber

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #1171 on: August 19, 2021, 08:34:05 pm »
Its true that gas has a much higher Energy Density than storying power in batteries.

However, there are things that offset that:
- Batteries store less energy than a comparable amount of gas, but those batteries can be re-charged. Once that gas is gone, its gone

- Most of the energy in that gas is actually wasted... mostly waste heat from combustion (although things like friction might play a role). If I remember correctly, only ~15% of the energy in gas actually gets used to move the car forward. In the case of electric cars, the efficiency is closer to 75%.

Even with ICE's only having 30% thermal efficiency, they can still carry far more useful energy than electric vehicles. This will limit EV's to light duty vehicles or very short range heavy duty vehicles. Resources to produce batteries are are also a huge problem. For the UK to meet its EV objectives it will need twice the worlds annual cobalt production all by itself.

https://autoserve.co.uk/motoring-news/uk-worlds-cobalt-supply-electric-cars/

"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #1172 on: August 20, 2021, 07:29:54 am »


I found these numbers interesting, so I decided to do some digging.

First I checked Abacus Data's website because I wanted more information about their methodology. Searching the title of the chart didn't dig it up.

Okay fine. Maybe they didn't write up an article about it.

So I decided to check their archives because there's a date on this image. So I went to the archives for September 2020: https://abacusdata.ca/2020/09/

Still nothing. That's okay though, maybe the data was gathered in September then processed over the next couple of months. I flipped through the archive for the rest of the year and still nothing.

Huh....that's weird.

Then I did a reverse image search in Google and oddly this is the only instance of this photo that Google could find.

Now I'm sure the waldo wouldn't be photoshopping data visualizations like this. So could you send me the link to their report on this data because I'm not going to spend half my morning looking for it.

Offline segnosaur

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #1173 on: August 20, 2021, 10:39:34 am »
Even with ICE's only having 30% thermal efficiency, they can still carry far more useful energy than electric vehicles. This will limit EV's to light duty vehicles or very short range heavy duty vehicles.
Yes, but 'light duty vehicles' (cars, pickup trucks, etc.) probably compose of the majority of vehicles on the road.

More eco-Friendly heavy-duty/long range vehicles (transport trucks, etc.) will take longer. But, technology progresses...
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Resources to produce batteries are are also a huge problem. For the UK to meet its EV objectives it will need twice the worlds annual cobalt production all by itself.
Yes, availability of certain materials used in battery production (like Cobalt, Lithium, etc.) might be a problem. (Not to mention that much of the world's cobalt comes from Africa, where stability and human rights are often issues.)

But, technology changes. The first EVs used components that were 33% cobalt. That has since dropped to 15-20%, and IBM is working on a cobalt-free battery. So while cobalt may be an issue with today's crop of EVs, it may not be a problem in the future.

See: https://cleantechnica.com/2021/01/07/cobalt-banished-from-new-lithium-ion-electric-vehicle-batteries/

Offline waldo

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #1174 on: August 20, 2021, 12:01:19 pm »
I found these numbers interesting, so I decided to do some digging.

First I checked Abacus Data's website because I wanted more information about their methodology. Searching the title of the chart didn't dig it up.

Okay fine. Maybe they didn't write up an article about it.

So I decided to check their archives because there's a date on this image. So I went to the archives for September 2020: https://abacusdata.ca/2020/09/

Still nothing. That's okay though, maybe the data was gathered in September then processed over the next couple of months. I flipped through the archive for the rest of the year and still nothing.

Huh....that's weird.

Then I did a reverse image search in Google and oddly this is the only instance of this photo that Google could find.

Now I'm sure the waldo wouldn't be photoshopping data visualizations like this. So could you send me the link to their report on this data because I'm not going to spend half my morning looking for it.

no worries member cyber - in spite of your limited search prowess... and your underlying innuendo (oh wait, let's make that overt innuendo), your time is the waldo's time! LOL!

note: from David Coletto - Chief Executive at Abacus Data, no less! You're welcome! ... you can take it from here, right? /snarc


Offline wilber

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #1175 on: August 20, 2021, 01:33:18 pm »
Yes, but 'light duty vehicles' (cars, pickup trucks, etc.) probably compose of the majority of vehicles on the road.


See: https://cleantechnica.com/2021/01/07/cobalt-banished-from-new-lithium-ion-electric-vehicle-batteries/

When it comes to pickups, EV's will be pretty much limited to 1/2 tons. 3/4 and 1T trucks which do the majority of private use  towing etc will continue to be gas and diesel. Diesel has 27 times the energy density of a lithium ion battery and even if the EV is 100% efficient and the diesel only 35% efficient, diesel still has 10 times the usable energy density.

Quote
More eco-Friendly heavy-duty/long range vehicles (transport trucks, etc.) will take longer. But, technology progresses...Yes, availability of certain materials used in battery production (like Cobalt, Lithium, etc.) might be a problem. (Not to mention that much of the world's cobalt comes from Africa, where stability and human rights are often issues.)

But, technology changes. The first EVs used components that were 33% cobalt. That has since dropped to 15-20%, and IBM is working on a cobalt-free battery. So while cobalt may be an issue with today's crop of EVs, it may not be a problem in the future.

No doubt technology will bring future improvements and efficiencies but the fact remains, the targets governments are setting for EV sales are not attainable with present technology.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline segnosaur

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #1176 on: August 20, 2021, 01:57:30 pm »
When it comes to pickups, EV's will be pretty much limited to 1/2 tons.
Well, the most common pickup truck (actually the most popular vehicle of any type) is the Ford F150. And they are coming out with an electrified version.
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3/4 and 1T trucks which do the majority of private use  towing etc will continue to be gas and diesel. Diesel has 27 times the energy density of a lithium ion battery and even if the EV is 100% efficient and the diesel only 35% efficient, diesel still has 10 times the usable energy density.
I think it is all going to depend on usage patterns.

If you are towing your motorboat up to some lake in the middle of nowhere, an electric vehicle would be impractical. (Towing reduces range, probably few if any places to recharge, etc.) But how many people really do that sort of thing?

- Many pickup truck owners use their Truck more as a status symbol than a work truck. As such, they may never actually tow anything, and trips may be restricted to more urban areas (i.e. always within range of a charger). My parents were like that... they had a Chevy S10. Mostly used as the family 'second vehicle'.

- Many work trucks will be used only within a city, often for short trips too and from a work site (after which the Truck might sit idle most of the work day). Basically the Truck use is: load up the needed tools in the morning/hitch your trailer, drive to a construction site, unload the vehicle, do your work for the day, then load it up to bring everything home for the evening, when you can plug it in again.

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No doubt technology will bring future improvements and efficiencies but the fact remains, the targets governments are setting for EV sales are not attainable with present technology.
Yes, but the targets are far enough out that technology should be able to keep pace.

Should also be noted that the 'targets' themselves are pretty... empty. Biden said he wants a 50-50 split between gas/electric vehicles, but there is no penalty if car companies fail to meet the target.

Offline wilber

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #1177 on: August 20, 2021, 02:50:23 pm »
People who do tow anything larger than small boats and trailers use 3/4 and one ton trucks, mostly diesel. Electric motors are perfectly suited to heavy duty uses like towing but unfortunately batteries don't cut it as energy storage devices.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline segnosaur

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #1178 on: August 20, 2021, 04:20:12 pm »
People who do tow anything larger than small boats and trailers use 3/4 and one ton trucks, mostly diesel. Electric motors are perfectly suited to heavy duty uses like towing but unfortunately batteries don't cut it as energy storage devices.
Yes, I already admitted that long-distance towing of large payloads in isolated areas would make an electric vehicle impractical.

But, I also suggested that those types of situations, while they do exist, probably are not a factor in the way that many/most truck drivers actually use their vehicles. Many pickup drivers don't use their vehicle to tow (they are more or less status symbols), and of those that do tow heavier loads, may not travel very far (e.g. using it for work within a limited geographic area).

You're worried about the 1% of cases where EVs would be impractical for a vehicle owner instead of the 99% of cases where they would be perfectly fine.

Now, the way to handle the small number of drivers who continue to need the functionality that comes from a gas-powered vehicle is a challenge. Perhaps those drivers will continue to use fossil fuels (since they will end up making up an increasingly smaller portion of vehicular traffic, the impact on global warming will be minimal). Or perhaps biofuels will end up playing a greater portion of fuel usage. (At one point I thought biofuels would be the "winning technology", but they haven't yet seen enough significant technological breakthroughs.)
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Offline waldo

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #1179 on: October 13, 2021, 11:25:33 am »
study presenting accuracy of newspaper articles on climate change: 'Balance as bias, resolute on the retreat? Updates & analyses of newspaper coverage in the United States, United Kingdom, New Zealand, Australia and Canada over the past 15 years'

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Through this research, we systematically updated and expanded understanding of how the print media represent evidence of human contributions to climate change. We built on previous research that examined how the journalistic norm of balanced reporting contributed to informationally biased print media coverage in the United States (U.S.) context. We conducted a content analysis of coverage across 4856 newspaper articles over 15 years (2005–2019) and expanded previous research beyond U.S. borders by analyzing 17 sources in five countries: the United Kingdom (U.K.), Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and the U.S.

whaaa! Oh my waldo - Toronto Star most accurate... National Post least accurate!


Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #1180 on: October 13, 2021, 01:14:40 pm »
Oh the NP has an outright denier who writes for them Laurence Soloman.

Offline wilber

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #1181 on: October 13, 2021, 06:40:24 pm »
study presenting accuracy of newspaper articles on climate change: 'Balance as bias, resolute on the retreat? Updates & analyses of newspaper coverage in the United States, United Kingdom, New Zealand, Australia and Canada over the past 15 years'

whaaa! Oh my waldo - Toronto Star most accurate... National Post least accurate!



Source?
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline waldo

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #1182 on: October 15, 2021, 12:31:26 am »
study presenting accuracy of newspaper articles on climate change: 'Balance as bias, resolute on the retreat? Updates & analyses of newspaper coverage in the United States, United Kingdom, New Zealand, Australia and Canada over the past 15 years'

whaaa! Oh my waldo - Toronto Star most accurate... National Post least accurate!

Source?

source? Really?

Offline waldo

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #1183 on: October 15, 2021, 12:37:02 am »
Canada leads world with pledge to curb methane leaks from oil, gas sector... "On October 7, 2021, the International Energy Agency released a report on the need for countries and companies to commit to reducing methane emissions from fossil fuel operations by 75 percent below 2012 levels by 2030. The International Energy Agency’s Net Zero by 2050 roadmap, released earlier this year, also envisions the 75 percent reduction. Canada is the first and only country to support the Global Methane Pledge and the 75 percent goal."

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=> Methane is a potent greenhouse gas and short-lived climate pollutant that has eighty‑six times the warming power of carbon dioxide over a twenty-year period after being released into the atmosphere.
=> Methane accounts for 17 percent of global greenhouse gas emissions from human activities, principally from the energy, agriculture, and waste sectors.
=> The Global Methane Pledge is an initiative to reduce global methane emissions that will be launched at the UN Climate Change Conference (COP26) in Glasgow.



Offline The Cynic

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #1184 on: October 22, 2021, 04:07:56 pm »
Source?

Of course, the accuracy of such a study depends entirely on the biases of the people doing the study.