Author Topic: Climate Change  (Read 28645 times)

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Offline TimG

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #75 on: August 28, 2017, 02:25:29 pm »
It does work, we've had a carbon tax in BC for some time and it has reduced emissions and last I looked was basically revenue neutral. It seems it's as simple as making people think and plan ahead, such as making one trip to the grocery store to get everything instead of going back three times.
Then why are greens insisting that it be increase way beyond the estimated social cost of carbon? The fact is the economic of reducing CO2 simply do not work. The cost is simply too high to justify the expense given the likely consequences.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #76 on: August 28, 2017, 02:33:56 pm »
Then why are greens insisting that it be increase way beyond the estimated social cost of carbon? The fact is the economic of reducing CO2 simply do not work. The cost is simply too high to justify the expense given the likely consequences.

Depends where you get your "estimated social cost of carbon". 149 countries, including India and China think it's worth it to move away from fossil fuel pollution. If you've evern been in either of those countries you would see why. Another attractive feature of renewables is that once developed, there is no real reason for the prices to fluctuate wildly such as they have always done with fossils. 
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Offline waldo

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #77 on: August 30, 2017, 11:08:57 am »
hey now! Can the "no mitigate, adapt-r-us" guy comment on the stalled out (now tropical) storm still dumping rain... why's it just hangin' in/around?

got an estimate for infrastructure adaptation in the U.S. Gulf Coast (and proximity) area... sure you do... c'mon, what's your cost to adapt... and then adapt again... and then again...

Offline wilber

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #78 on: August 30, 2017, 07:59:32 pm »
Audi and Porsche are quitting the World Endurance Championship (Le Mans) and Mercedes is quitting the German Touring Car Championship and joining BMW, Jaguar, Renault and Mahindra in Formula E next year.
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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #79 on: August 30, 2017, 08:26:29 pm »
Audi and Porsche are quitting the World Endurance Championship (Le Mans) and Mercedes is quitting the German Touring Car Championship and joining BMW, Jaguar, Renault and Mahindra in Formula E next year.

The more industry turns to green alternatives the less the deniers will be able to deny.   
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Offline Omni

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #80 on: August 30, 2017, 08:38:35 pm »
The more industry turns to green alternatives the less the deniers will be able to deny.

That is true and even though Trump backed away from the Paris Accord, many large US industries have ignored him to continue on with their own green approaches.

But hey I guess if someone  wants to go down into a **** hole coal mine, Trump's your....cough, cough.... man.
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Offline wilber

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #81 on: August 31, 2017, 01:19:15 pm »
The more industry turns to green alternatives the less the deniers will be able to deny.

More manufacturers are realizing that EV's are going to be a much bigger factor in the market but I don't see the demise of the IC engine anytime soon. Batteries will have to get much better and charging times much shorter if they are to rival the flexibility of IC engines. Automotive engineers also say there is room for at least a 20% increase in efficiency for IC engines,  making hybrids even more attractive. Consider that current hybrid F1 cars are faster than the pure IC cars they replaced while burning 30% less fuel during a race and hybrids of some sort have won every LeMans 24hrs since 2012.

I think that for people who like cars, the future is going to be exciting.
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Offline TimG

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #82 on: August 31, 2017, 01:38:32 pm »
More manufacturers are realizing that EV's are going to be a much bigger factor in the market but I don't see the demise of the IC engine anytime soon. Batteries will have to get much better and charging times much shorter if they are to rival the flexibility of IC engines.
The current EV bubble is driven entirely by threats of governments outlawing ICE vehicles. I really doubt that when the time comes governments will go through with such bans. More likely hybrids will become standard because hybrids give drivers the best of both worlds.

One factor that will stop the alleged "EV revolution" in its tracks will be the cost of building all of the new power plants and grid capacity needed to meet the additional demand. It simply won't happen in if the current obstructionist political environment continues and it will lead to price spikes, blackouts and general consensus that depending on a politically mismanaged grid is a bad idea.
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Offline wilber

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #83 on: August 31, 2017, 02:04:32 pm »
This is not a fad, car companies are staking their futures and spending billions on developing EV's. There was a lot less infrastructure for IC vehicles when they were first introduced.

"The president of Ferrari, Sergio Marchionne, who is also the CEO of the manufacturer Fiat Chrysler, has said one of the brands the group owns is also likely to enter FE. Maserati, whose cars will be electrified by 2019, is a strong favourite. It is part of a wider process. Marchionne also announced last week that half of the group’s entire fleet, which includes Alfa Romeo, Dodge, Chrysler and Fiat, would be electrified by 2022."

Source, The Guardian F1 coverage.

Plug in hybrids and EV's with IC backups will be part of the future, I don't see one technology dominating it completely for some time, if ever.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 02:06:58 pm by wilber »
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Offline Omni

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #84 on: August 31, 2017, 02:17:11 pm »
The current EV bubble is driven entirely by threats of governments outlawing ICE vehicles. I really doubt that when the time comes governments will go through with such bans. More likely hybrids will become standard because hybrids give drivers the best of both worlds.

One factor that will stop the alleged "EV revolution" in its tracks will be the cost of building all of the new power plants and grid capacity needed to meet the additional demand. It simply won't happen in if the current obstructionist political environment continues and it will lead to price spikes, blackouts and general consensus that depending on a politically mismanaged grid is a bad idea.

Care to show us where you get this idea that the government is planning to outlaw IC vehicles? France has talked about banning the sale of them, but that won't mean you can't drive one if you still have one.

Depending on where you live I guess, but generally speaking your idea that the cost of new power plants will stop the evolution is unfounded as well. BC Hydro for instance already claims to currently have enough unused capacity, even in winter, to meet the demands if almost the whole province who have vehicles all switched to EV's tomorrow. Quebec claims to be in similar shape. They claim they could handle at least a million EV's without expanding the current system and they anticipate having 100,000 on the road by 2020.

So saying "it simply won't happen" is simply wrong. It is already happening.
 

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #85 on: August 31, 2017, 02:26:57 pm »
More manufacturers are realizing that EV's are going to be a much bigger factor in the market but I don't see the demise of the IC engine anytime soon. Batteries will have to get much better and charging times much shorter if they are to rival the flexibility of IC engines. Automotive engineers also say there is room for at least a 20% increase in efficiency for IC engines,  making hybrids even more attractive. Consider that current hybrid F1 cars are faster than the pure IC cars they replaced while burning 30% less fuel during a race and hybrids of some sort have won every LeMans 24hrs since 2012

If I were getting a new vehicle, hybrid is definitely the way I would like to go. 

I am not a car-racing fan, but I am curious.  When the hybrids win races, are they running mostly on battery or gas?   Is there something in the design of hybrids that makes them more powerful than traditional IC cars?   Why do they win?

Offline wilber

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #86 on: August 31, 2017, 03:35:21 pm »
If I were getting a new vehicle, hybrid is definitely the way I would like to go. 

I am not a car-racing fan, but I am curious.  When the hybrids win races, are they running mostly on battery or gas?   Is there something in the design of hybrids that makes them more powerful than traditional IC cars?   Why do they win?



The race cars use both but most of the power still comes from the gas engine. Even so, the cars are limited to 105 KG of fuel per race with is about 35% less than the old cars. In F1, the power plant formula is mandated so all manufacturers build engines to the same formula. This is true of all formula racing including Indy and NASCAR. The fastest pure ICE cars they replaced were 3 litre V10 normally aspirated engines that ran at up to 20,000 RPM. The new cars use a 1.6 litre turbocharged V6 limited to 15,000 RPM. The hybrid system uses the usual things like brake regeneration that you see in the Prius and other hybrids, plus an energy recovery turbine in the exhaust system. The big difference with the hybrids is that electric motors produce maximum torque at zero RPM, which makes the cars accelerate faster out of turns. Initially in 2014, the IC engines were producing about 600 HP and the electric motor 160 HP for over 30 seconds per lap for 760 HP  total but this year, Ferrari and Mercedes power plants are making over 900 and 1000 has been rumoured. The car's race weight is also less because they carry less fuel.

 In endurance racing lower fuel consumption also means fewer pit stops.

I don't know if it is a good car or not but I kind of like the idea behind the Volt. Instead of a hybrid that uses both the IC engine and an electric motor to drive the wheels, the Volt is a pure electric where the IC engine just drives a generator to charge the batteries and run the electric motor when needed.

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Offline TimG

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #87 on: August 31, 2017, 04:24:33 pm »
This is not a fad, car companies are staking their futures and spending billions on developing EV's. There was a lot less infrastructure for IC vehicles when they were first introduced.
We should talk after Tesla crashes and burns. Companies are spending money on EVs but I have seen no evidence that this is more than a case of hedging bets in the face of possible future regulations. EVs are still too expensive and charging times too long to make the viable for most consumers.

Also, the problems with the grid and supply are real. Too many EVs on a block and the local grid will go down. Given how incompetently the electricity supply has been managed over the last 10 years it is naive to assume that these problems are going disappear.

Offline Omni

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #88 on: August 31, 2017, 04:37:02 pm »





 In endurance racing lower fuel consumption also means fewer pit stops.

I don't know if it is a good car or not but I kind of like the idea behind the Volt. Instead of a hybrid that uses both the IC engine and an electric motor to drive the wheels, the Volt is a pure electric where the IC engine just drives a generator to charge the batteries and run the electric motor when needed.
[/quote]

That 's certainly a good way to reduce the "range anxiety" issue.

I recall some moons ago reading about a car maker who was proposing an EV where the chassis contained the battery's and the body would be a type of "quick disconnect" and you had the option of buying one or all of three different body designs, so you could a sedan for the family trips, a small pickup for trips to Lumberworld, or a sporty convertible for those kind of trips. 

Offline Omni

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #89 on: August 31, 2017, 05:01:25 pm »
We should talk after Tesla crashes and burns. Companies are spending money on EVs but I have seen no evidence that this is more than a case of hedging bets in the face of possible future regulations. EVs are still too expensive and charging times too long to make the viable for most consumers.

Also, the problems with the grid and supply are real. Too many EVs on a block and the local grid will go down. Given how incompetently the electricity supply has been managed over the last 10 years it is naive to assume that these problems are going disappear.

Yeah I don't think Tesla will be doing anything like crashing and burning if you look at how not only their new car business is expanding, but they've been on the road long enough that the used vehicle business is also taking off.
And of course there are much cheaper EV's available that are comparable to their IC engine countrparts, especially when you see how much you can save on fuel costs.

You do have one point in that yes, if everyone on your block went out tomorrow and bought an EV, if could overload the local grid, but what's more likely is that EV's will show up gradually and your local power corp. will be able to adjust.

And I don't know where you live, but it must not be in BC if you have such an incompetently run grid system.