Author Topic: Climate Change  (Read 28581 times)

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Offline TimG

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #750 on: June 08, 2019, 08:03:09 pm »
We're aware that fossil fuels are profitable in the short term - if we don't include environmental costs.
While can agree that fossil fuel use has negative side effects but any attempt calculate a "cost" for these effects is an exercise in creative fiction. That means you have no rational basis for your claim that the environment costs of fossil fuels exceed their benefits to society (monetary and non-monetary). This is nothing but a belief you have which is not unlike a christian believing in jesus. You can hardly expect others to share your religion.

Yes there are still federal subsidies, and we want those federal subsidies to be transferred to renewables.
If you wish to say you want to impose punitive taxes on fossil fuels to fund the development of completely useless renewables then you should say that. Repeating a falsehood about fossil fuel subsidies does make it true.

Fossil fuels were never cheap. We just subsidized them and passed the environmental costs on to the future.
Again complete nonsense. If you want to talk about the intangible harms caused by fossil fuels you MUST also talk about the intangible benefits. Ignoring the benefits is simply dishonest and fools no one.

Offline Omni

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #751 on: June 08, 2019, 08:23:03 pm »
While can agree that fossil fuel use has negative side effects but any attempt calculate a "cost" for these effects is an exercise in creative fiction. That means you have no rational basis for your claim that the environment costs of fossil fuels exceed their benefits to society (monetary and non-monetary). This is nothing but a belief you have which is not unlike a christian believing in jesus. You can hardly expect others to share your religion.
If you wish to say you want to impose punitive taxes on fossil fuels to fund the development of completely useless renewables then you should say that. Repeating a falsehood about fossil fuel subsidies does make it true.
Again complete nonsense. If you want to talk about the intangible harms caused by fossil fuels you MUST also talk about the intangible benefits. Ignoring the benefits is simply dishonest and fools no one.

1. People understanding/believing science is about as far at the opposite end of the scale as you can get vis a vis religion.

2. If you think renewables are "useless" than are guess we are screwed. Fossils are nearing their end.

3. I would hardly call the thousands of people who die each year from inhaling particles from fossil combustion "intangible harms"

Offline TimG

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #752 on: June 08, 2019, 08:37:08 pm »
People understanding/believing science is about as far at the opposite end of the scale as you can get vis a vis religion.
There is little science in efforts to quantify intangible harms caused by fossil fuels. It is often a self serving exercise driven to produce numbers that suit the researcher.

If you think renewables are "useless" than are guess we are screwed. Fossils are nearing their end.
NO credible source believes this. Fossil fuel use is expected to grow for the next 30 years.

I would hardly call the thousands of people who die each year from inhaling particles from fossil combustion "intangible harms"
Except can't prove any such link. All you can do is a correlation analyses and assume that any correlation found can be attributed  to fossil fuels. Furthermore, even if you accept that some of those deaths can be correctly attributed  to fossil fuels you also have to factor in the benefits. e.g. every person who's life was saved by a fossil fuel powered ambulance or medical evac helicopter is a life saved by fossil fuels.

Offline Omni

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #753 on: June 08, 2019, 08:58:00 pm »
There is little science in efforts to quantify intangible harms caused by fossil fuels. It is often a self serving exercise driven to produce numbers that suit the researcher.
NO credible source believes this. Fossil fuel use is expected to grow for the next 30 years.
Except can't prove any such link. All you can do is a correlation analyses and assume that any correlation found can be attributed  to fossil fuels. Furthermore, even if you accept that some of those deaths can be correctly attributed  to fossil fuels you also have to factor in the benefits. e.g. every person who's life was saved by a fossil fuel powered ambulance or medical evac helicopter is a life saved by fossil fuels.

1. What would be the reason peer reviewed professional scientists would produce results simply to suit themselves? Makes no sense.

2. What could cause us to wean ourselves off fossils even before they run is the continued rising costs of extraction.

3.  I don't think the ride to the hospital is what saves lives. That ambulance could easily be an EV.

Offline TimG

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #754 on: June 08, 2019, 11:30:02 pm »
I don't think the ride to the hospital is what saves lives. That ambulance could easily be an EV.
The point is there are no EV ambulances so such qualification means nothing. The fact is people's lives are saved because of fossil fuels powering emergency vehicles. This is a benefit of fossil fuels because any other alternative would have meant fewer and/or non-existent (too expensive/unreliable) emergency vehicles. Similar arguments are everywhere. Every positive thing produced by the economy is only possible because of the cost structures created by the wide availability of the fossil fuels. You can't whinge about the harms of fossil fuels without taking into account all those benefits. This is true even if alternatives do become cost effective in the future because those options did not exist in the past.

« Last Edit: June 08, 2019, 11:34:34 pm by TimG »

Offline Omni

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #755 on: June 08, 2019, 11:52:09 pm »
The point is there are no EV ambulances so such qualification means nothing. The fact is people's lives are saved because of fossil fuels powering emergency vehicles. This is a benefit of fossil fuels because any other alternative would have meant fewer and/or non-existent (too expensive/unreliable) emergency vehicles. Similar arguments are everywhere. Every positive thing produced by the economy is only possible because of the cost structures created by the wide availability of the fossil fuels. You can't whinge about the harms of fossil fuels without taking into account all those benefits. This is true even if alternatives do become cost effective in the future because those options did not exist in the past.

As people continue to switch to EV's they will continue to develop, as will ongoing extension of battery range. Denmark has already developed an ambulance that is an EV. Norway working toward it.

https://www.sustainability-times.com/sustainable-business/a-new-ambulance-made-in-denmark-has-gone-all-electric/


Offline waldo

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #756 on: June 09, 2019, 12:03:52 am »
Fossil fuel use is expected to grow for the next 30 years.


Offline Granny

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #757 on: June 09, 2019, 12:13:34 pm »
The point is there are no EV ambulances so such qualification means nothing. The fact is people's lives are saved because of fossil fuels powering emergency vehicles.

Because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it can't.
People are saved by emergency vehicles w proper equipment getting them to hospital.
Their power source is entirely irrelevant.

You're really running out of arguments, TimG, and the only ones you have left are full of holes. Lol

Offline Omni

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #758 on: June 09, 2019, 12:58:59 pm »
Because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it can't.
People are saved by emergency vehicles w proper equipment getting them to hospital.
Their power source is entirely irrelevant.

You're really running out of arguments, TimG, and the only ones you have left are full of holes. Lol

And those electric helicopters that "don't exist" might not be that far away. The big boys of that industry are already developing them.

 Several aircraft manufactures are developing electric urban air taxis, many of which use tilting, ducted fans for lift and propulsion.

Airbus Helicopters, for instance, is developing its CityAirbus electric-powered urban air taxi, Boeing is developing an electric "autonomous passenger air vehicle" and Bell Helicopter is working on a hybrid-electric design as part of its Nexus programme.

Several years ago, Sikorsky developed an electric-powered version of a Schweizer S-300C light helicopter, part of a project called Firefly.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/hai-sikorsky-launches-drive-to-develop-urban-air-ta-456316/

Offline Granny

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #759 on: June 09, 2019, 01:53:12 pm »
And those electric helicopters that "don't exist" might not be that far away. The big boys of that industry are already developing them.

 Several aircraft manufactures are developing electric urban air taxis, many of which use tilting, ducted fans for lift and propulsion.

Airbus Helicopters, for instance, is developing its CityAirbus electric-powered urban air taxi, Boeing is developing an electric "autonomous passenger air vehicle" and Bell Helicopter is working on a hybrid-electric design as part of its Nexus programme.

Several years ago, Sikorsky developed an electric-powered version of a Schweizer S-300C light helicopter, part of a project called Firefly.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/hai-sikorsky-launches-drive-to-develop-urban-air-ta-456316/
EV planes, ships, transport trucks, trains, buses etc etc, all ramping up production.

It's going to be a huge shift, and It's going to be fast now.
 

Offline Omni

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #760 on: June 09, 2019, 02:14:25 pm »
EV planes, ships, transport trucks, trains, buses etc etc, all ramping up production.

It's going to be a huge shift, and It's going to be fast now.

The planes are on their way too.

Harbour Air starts multi-year conversion to electric-powered flight

 The converted six-passenger DHC-2 de Havilland Beaver will feature a zero-emission, 750-horsepower motor.

“Everything is on schedule,” said Randy Wright, president of Harbour Air, who was on hand for James’ visit. “The plane is currently in Richmond being retrofitted and the engine is on the way up from Australia and should be here in August and we are on schedule to test fly in November.”

The first commercial flight is still as long as two years away, but Harbour Air has committed to eventually convert its entire fleet of 42 planes. “This is very cutting edge and very exciting,” said Wright.

https://www.timescolonist.com/business/harbour-air-starts-multi-year-conversion-to-electric-powered-flight-1.23847737

Offline TimG

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #761 on: June 09, 2019, 03:53:02 pm »
Because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it can't.
People are saved by emergency vehicles w proper equipment getting them to hospital.
Their power source is entirely irrelevant.
We are talking about the PAST and the PRESENT. Not whatever fantasies you may invent about what MIGHT happen in the future. In the PAST and PRESENT emergency services cannot function without fossil fuels which means the lives saved by emergency services DO count as lives saved by fossil fuels. If you are going whinge about the harms of fossil fuels you cannot avoid talking about the benefits of fossil fuels. It is simply dishonest to only look at one side of the ledger.

Your blindness to the benefits of fossil fuels is why there is such a disconnect between what you believe and what politicians actually do. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not fossil fuels bring great benefits to society and these benefits must be weighed against the harms. In the past and the present the intangible benefits of fossil fuels far exceeds any intangible harms. New tech in the future may change that balance but that will only happen when the new tech exists and is proven to be as useful as the fossil fuel powered solution. We are closer than we have been in the past but we are still a long way away from that point.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 03:59:17 pm by TimG »

Offline Omni

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #762 on: June 09, 2019, 04:05:43 pm »
We are talking about the PAST and the PRESENT. Not whatever fantasies you may invent about what MIGHT happen in the future. In the PAST and PRESENT emergency services cannot function without fossil fuels which means the lives saved by emergency services DO count as lives saved by fossil fuels. If you are going whinge about the harms of fossil fuels you cannot avoid talking about the benefits of fossil fuels. It is simply dishonest to only look at one side of the ledger.

Your blindness to the benefits of fossil fuels is why there is such a disconnect between what you believe and what politicians actually do. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not fossil fuels bring great benefits to society and these benefits must be weighed against the harms. In the past and the present the intangible benefits of fossil fuels far exceeds any intangible harms. New tech in the future may change that balance but that will only happen when the new tech exists and is proven to be as useful as the fossil fuel powered solution. We are closer than we have been in the past but we are still a long way away from that point.

Why would you think it's "dishonest" to look at the harms of fossil fuels? Essentially since they are well proven. Yes of course we have all pumped gas into our vehicles to get around, but assuming we can't move beyond is simply narrow mindedness. It almost sounds as if you think we owe those pollutants some sort of a debt of gratitude.

Offline TimG

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #763 on: June 09, 2019, 05:09:44 pm »
Why would you think it's "dishonest" to look at the harms of fossil fuels?
Learn to read. It is dishonest to whinge about the harms of fossil fuels without also acknowledging the benefits. Both the harms and benefits are real but the problem with anti-fossil fuel zealots is they have no understanding of how essential fossil fuels are to the functioning of society and that their benefits far exceed any harms.

Offline Omni

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #764 on: June 09, 2019, 05:18:59 pm »
Learn to read. It is dishonest to whinge about the harms of fossil fuels without also acknowledging the benefits. Both the harms and benefits are real but the problem with anti-fossil fuel zealots is they have no understanding of how essential fossil fuels are to the functioning of society and that their benefits far exceed any harms.

People with concerns about the air they breath ( and we remind you, also the air you breath) are not zealots. Fossil fuels WERE essential to us for some time but it is time to improve and move on to cleaner ways of moving stuff around.  And BTW, I read quite well.