Author Topic: Climate Change  (Read 28579 times)

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Offline Omni

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #645 on: May 24, 2019, 12:12:48 pm »
How do we kill off these industries?  You'd have to convince 7.7 billion people on the planet to stop using gasoline and other cheap fossil fuel energy.  We could completely shut down the Alberta oil sands and take axes to all our current pipelines but it wouldn't kill off these industries.

We don't need unworkable dreams, we need practical solutions that will fit into the current economic realities.  People want to help global warming, they also want cheap food, energy, and transportation.  When those 2 are able to intersect we will have ourselves a solution. Fortunately we have geniuses working on tech and that tech will keep getting cheaper as it always does.

Apparently you didn't see it but you answered your own question.

Offline Omni

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #646 on: May 24, 2019, 12:18:30 pm »
Yes, and so do alarmists.  Fortunately none of these people  control technological progress or the global marketplace and neither of them can stop progress.

"Alarmists" as you like to call them DON'T ignore the pertinent facts, otherwise they wouldn't be concerned. UNfortunately fossil fuel producers do control much of the global marketplace currently and have done for some time.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #647 on: May 24, 2019, 04:01:46 pm »
I see either a UPS or a Fedex truck go down my street everyday. They are just driving around town just as a lot of us do. EV's would work quite well.
As far as farming goes, have you ever heard of a company caleed John Deere? who are now focusing intently on new tractors that are not only electric but autonomous.

That's promising but UPS/Fedex and farmers will only use the EV technology if it's as cheap or cheaper than gas vehicles.

There's not much that can be done about that either, because if Fedex uses electric and UPS uses gasoline and gas vehicles are cheaper, Fedex will need to charge more to remain competitive and by consequence may go out of business and stock investors will flee as profits drop, like every other business, same with farmers.

Carbon taxes can make EVs more competitive, but then the price will be passed on to the consumer which will cause inflation and everything will cost more, for the poor and rich alike.  And it will also make us less competitive on the global market and literally put companies out of business if they're competing against countries that use cheaper fossil fuels (if fossil fuels remain cheaper).

The best wishes of Elizabeth May etc. are irrelevant to consumers and businesses.  That's why our best hope is to invent technologies that are as cheap or cheaper than fossil fuels, and I hope we get there ASAP. We seem to be making a lot of progress.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #648 on: May 24, 2019, 04:07:04 pm »
That's promising but UPS/Fedex and farmers will only use the EV technology if it's as cheap or cheaper than gas vehicles.

Times are changing:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/feb/12/electric-cars-already-cheaper-own-run-study

Offline Omni

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #649 on: May 24, 2019, 04:16:04 pm »
That's promising but UPS/Fedex and farmers will only use the EV technology if it's as cheap or cheaper than gas vehicles.

There's not much that can be done about that either, because if Fedex uses electric and UPS uses gasoline and gas vehicles are cheaper, Fedex will need to charge more to remain competitive and by consequence may go out of business and stock investors will flee as profits drop, like every other business, same with farmers.

Carbon taxes can make EVs more competitive, but then the price will be passed on to the consumer which will cause inflation and everything will cost more, for the poor and rich alike.  And it will also make us less competitive on the global market and literally put companies out of business if they're competing against countries that use cheaper fossil fuels (if fossil fuels remain cheaper).

Once again you have basically gone in a circle. One thing I would point out to you though is that people have already shown they are willing to spend a bit more to buy an environmentally friendly vehicle simply because they are concerned. And, EV's are actually cheaper buy nowadays and way cheaper to operated than gas guzzlers.


Offline Omni

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #650 on: May 24, 2019, 04:25:51 pm »
One study that BC Hydro presented showed that, based on an average of 20,000 km's per year comparison, a Nissan Leaf would cost $430 while a compact gas vehicle would cost $2200.

https://www.bchydro.com/powersmart/electric-vehicles/owning-an-electric-vehicle/costs.html


Offline ?Impact

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #651 on: May 24, 2019, 04:32:07 pm »
based on an average of 20,000 km's per year comparison

Even more relevant is the type of driving. A delivery service with frequent stops might get even more benefit.

Offline Granny

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #652 on: May 24, 2019, 04:52:54 pm »
That's promising but UPS/Fedex and farmers will only use the EV technology if it's as cheap or cheaper than gas vehicles.
Truth.
And it will ... next year.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/dominicdudley/2018/01/13/renewable-energy-cost-effective-fossil-fuels-2020/
Quote
Carbon taxes can make EVs more competitive, but then the price will be passed on to the consumer which will cause inflation and everything will cost more, for the poor and rich alike.

Factoring in the REAL public costs of fossil fuel energy - ie what you pay at the pumps, on your meters and in your taxes
... subsidizing ff production,
... paying for climate change effects (floods, fires, migration)
... cleaning up ff environmental damage
 WHEN THEY CONVENIENTLY GO BANKRUPT AND WALK AWAY FROM THEIR ENVIRONMENTAL DAMAGE ... AND THEIR PENSION OBLIGATIONS.

We all pay for that.

Quote
And it will also make us less competitive on the global market and literally put companies out of business if they're competing against countries that use cheaper fossil fuels (if fossil fuels remain cheaper).

Fossil fuels are not cheaper when all of the public costs we pay for environmental damage are included:
-production (Orphan wells, degraded soil, water, air)
-transmission (construction, seeps leaks spills)
-use (emissions from burning)
Quote
The best wishes of Elizabeth May etc. are irrelevant to consumers and businesses.  That's why our best hope is to invent technologies that are as cheap or cheaper than fossil fuels, and I hope we get there ASAP. We seem to be making a lot of progress.

We're on it. Lol
« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 05:37:49 pm by Granny »

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #653 on: May 24, 2019, 05:29:34 pm »
Times are changing:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/feb/12/electric-cars-already-cheaper-own-run-study

If they're cheaper and the charging options are practical then companies will obviously buy them and all is good, as long as the power grid isn't running on fossil fuels of course.  I would think the charging practicalities would keep some companies and consumers back.  The proof will be in the pudding, we'll see how the sales are in the coming years.  Obviously charging will keep getting better which is good too.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline TimG

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #654 on: May 24, 2019, 05:39:08 pm »
Fossil fuels are not cheaper when all of the public costs we pay for environmental damage are included:
It is easy to make up imaginary or unquantifiable costs and then declare that whatever you dislike is too expensive. What matters in the real world are quantifiable costs relative to the amount of energy produced.

More importantly, all of those costs apply to the development and deployment of renewable power too so it is simply wrong to say that these costs are unique to fossil fuels. Toxic waste from solar panel production that pollute Chinese soil and rivers such matter as much as pollution from fossil fuel production. The only difference is we produce fossil fuels here which means reasonable efforts to minimize the impacts are put in place. Based on you logic we should be raising the price of solar panels to pay the cost of the pollution created with their production.

Companies going bankrupt and leaving taxpayers with the cleanup is not unique to fossil fuels either. Old wind farms are being abandoned around the world as companies decide it is too expensive to keep them operating. Imposing end of life cycle cleanup costs will hurt  renewable power's economically viability more than fossil fuels because renewable is can't make money with government subsidies. Fossil fuel production can at least make a profit that can be used to pay those costs.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 05:51:46 pm by TimG »

Offline Omni

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #655 on: May 24, 2019, 05:51:32 pm »
It is easy to make up imaginary or unquantifiable costs and then declare that whatever you dislike is too expensive. What matters in the real world are quantifiable costs relative to the amount of energy produced.

More importantly, all of those costs apply to the development and deployment of renewable power too so it is simply wrong to say that these costs are unique to fossil fuels. Toxic waste from solar panel production that pollute Chinese soil and rivers such matter as much as pollution from fossil fuel production. The only difference is we produce fossil fuels here which means reasonable efforts to minimize the impacts are put in place.

Companies going bankrupt and leaving taxpayers with the cleanup is not unique to fossil fuels either. Old wind farms are being abandoned around the world as companies decide it is too expensive to keep them operating.

It seems it is easy for you to ignore the clean up costs of fossil fuel production that get passed on to the taxpayer and simply look at the price at the pump. And yes there are wastes caused by solar panel production but once it's built,it's built. You don't have to generate more waste every time you get power from it like you do when you hit the gas pedal in your car.

Offline TimG

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #656 on: May 24, 2019, 05:55:01 pm »
It seems it is easy for you to ignore the clean up costs of fossil fuel production that get passed on to the taxpayer and simply look at the price at the pump.
Canadian governments collect $20 billion per year from fossil fuels. That pays for a lot of clean up and still leaves the taxpayer with a tidy profit. IOW, the idea that consumers don't pay the "true" cost of fossil fuels is nonsense.

Offline Granny

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #657 on: May 24, 2019, 06:02:04 pm »
If they're cheaper and the charging options are practical then companies will obviously buy them and all is good, as long as the power grid isn't running on fossil fuels of course.  I would think the charging practicalities would keep some companies and consumers back.  The proof will be in the pudding, we'll see how the sales are in the coming years.  Obviously charging will keep getting better which is good too.

There will always be capitalists who will play the longer  game for more sustainable returns.

EV's are still just 2.2% (& hybrids?)
But a spiking bigly trajectory.

https://emc-mec.ca/wp-content/uploads/Sales-growth-province-2018.jpg

.Big rigs

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/22/truck-makers-rev-up-for-rollout-of-electric-big-rigs.html

Airplanes
https://www.harbourair.com/harbour-air-and-magnix-partner-to-build-worlds-first-all-electric-airline/

Ships
https://safety4sea.com/are-electric-vessels-the-future-of-shipping/

Etc.
All coming online fast
It's all in the batteries.



Offline TimG

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #658 on: May 24, 2019, 06:12:47 pm »
It's all in the batteries.
Batteries that require massive mining operations to produce. What are the chances that lithium producers in Ecuador will pay anything close to the costs of mitigating the environmental damage and reclaiming the land once the mining operation ends?

Offline Omni

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #659 on: May 24, 2019, 06:17:18 pm »
Canadian governments collect $20 billion per year from fossil fuels. That pays for a lot of clean up and still leaves the taxpayer with a tidy profit. IOW, the idea that consumers don't pay the "true" cost of fossil fuels is nonsense.

Obviously you haven't fact checked your figures for oh, say 30 years or so. Current revenues are about $1.4.

That number was actually for Alberta. Canada in 2016 was just over $10.0, and declining rapidly.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 06:58:33 pm by Omni »