Author Topic: Climate Change  (Read 29027 times)

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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #450 on: May 12, 2019, 09:25:42 pm »
They said in the emails they would work to keep papers they don't like out of peer review even if they have to redefined what peer review is. They also discussed boycotting journals that published papers they did not like. Those statements on their own establish that those scientists lack the professionalism and ethics we would expect of any scientist.

Have any links to that?
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Offline waldo

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #451 on: May 13, 2019, 12:26:41 am »
Have any links to that?

WTF for! This is exactly what denier TimG is after... this is now a decade old. It was ONE scientist 'mouthing off' in an email about 2 papers from 2 deniers (not skeptics... flat out deniers) who posited that local urbanization was the cause of related land warming rather than the global influence of GHGs. Bottom line was that neither paper was suppressed from the related IPCC reports... but don't let that stop, now a decade later, denier TimG from harping on about 'the BadMan' and using that to impugn the integrity of all scientists working in climate related fields... that whole world-wide network of thousands upon thousands of dedicated/honest/reputable/honorable scientists. It's what deniers like TimG do - it's what he relishes!
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Offline TimG

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #452 on: May 13, 2019, 12:35:35 am »
Have any links to that?
Link to Guardian with their pro-consensus spin: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/jul/07/hacked-climate-emails-analysis

Quote
From: Phil Jones <p.jones@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
To: "Michael E. Mann" <mann@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL
Date: Thu Jul 8 16:30:16 2004

Mike,
... I can't see either of these papers being in the next IPCC report. Kevin and I will keep them out somehow - even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is !
Cheers
Phil
Can't find a exact email for the boycott claim. The text is here:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704398304574598230426037244

Quote
Mann further stated, "I think we have to stop considering 'Climate Research' as a legitimate peer-reviewed journal. Perhaps we should encourage our colleagues in the climate research community to no longer submit to, or cite papers in, this journal. We would also need to consider what we tell or request of our more reasonable colleagues who currently sit on the editorial board
Mann appears to justify the action because the journal published papers that Mann did not like. Of course the ethical and professional way to deal with papers you don't like is to publish your own papers. Mann is clearly does not place much importance on ethics or professionalism.

Offline Granny

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #453 on: May 13, 2019, 12:48:11 am »
WTF for! This is exactly what denier TimG is after... this is now a decade old. It was ONE scientist 'mouthing off' in an email about 2 papers from 2 deniers (not skeptics... flat out deniers) who posited that local urbanization was the cause of related land warming rather than the global influence of GHGs. Bottom line was that neither paper was suppressed from the related IPCC reports... but don't let that stop, now a decade later, denier TimG from harping on about 'the BadMan' and using that to impugn the integrity of all scientists working in climate related fields... that whole world-wide network of thousands upon thousands of dedicated/honest/reputable/honorable scientists.

It's what deniers like TimG do - it's what he relishes!
And how he distracts ...
Especially when it's clear that he's a flat oil man flogging 60 year old computerless Grade 9 science methods and hanging his hat on every outlier, crackpot and oil-paid 'researcher' putting out garbage method 'research' with oil happy findings.

Tim hangs out with the 3% error of science.
Lol

« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 12:54:10 am by Granny »
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #454 on: May 13, 2019, 06:08:10 am »
Like I said. Willfully blind. No reasonable person could read those email and not question the ethics and professionalism of the scientists involved. If you don't see it then it is willful blindness.

Professionalism starts to veer towards behaviour, and I will admit that the scientists are not magnanimous in the face of the pesky bloggers, but it's a giant leap to what you're saying about them.  Furthermore the email hackers selectively highlighted exchanges where nothing substantial was wrong but made it sound like they were manipulating truth.

They were also rightly concerned that journals might actually publish poor papers in order to seem more objective.  The bloggers try to jimmy the system so that if they DON'T get published it's because of a conspiracy.  If they DO then they have shown that the science is fake. 

It's such old news at this point. 

Offline TimG

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #455 on: May 13, 2019, 07:58:06 am »
Professionalism starts to veer towards behaviour, and I will admit that the scientists are not magnanimous in the face of the pesky bloggers
Deflect. minimize, whatever you need to do to to defend the indefensible. These were not just "pesky" bloggers. These were practicing academics. Moreover, it is insulting and condescending for you to denigrate people trying to get published in the peer reviewed literature just because they are not full time academics.

but it's a giant leap to what you're saying about them.
Similar nonsense has been going for 20 years involving multiple scientists. I picked this example because the evidence should be so obvious that even you could not dismiss it but I was wrong (you are just as bad as Trump defenders who insist he was "exonerated" and did nothing wrong). It is clear to anyone that has been paying attention and is not being willfully blind that many climate scientists lack objectivity and the degree of professionalism that we expect from people tasked with providing input into the legislative process. But I guess there is no evidence short of a confession from the accused that would be sufficient to convince you.

They were also rightly concerned that journals might actually publish poor papers in order to seem more objective.
Special pleading. Lots of poor pro-alarmist papers are published and they have no issue with quality. This is not a remotely acceptable defense of their actions. But this bring me back to my original point: in a field like climate science there is no objective way to determine which papers are bad and which are good. It all comes down to a question of whether other scientists see the paper as a help or a threat. That is why the lack of objectivity among influential academics in the field matters. It leaves us wondering what is really going on because we don't have anyone able to be a contrarian for the sake of being contrarian to find holes in our knowledge and protect against group think.

It's such old news at this point.
It is a current problem as long as there are people who refuse to acknowledge the systematic problems with the field and enable scientists who act unprofessionally.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 12:55:01 pm by TimG »

Offline waldo

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #456 on: May 13, 2019, 11:30:20 am »
Similar nonsense has been going for 20 years involving multiple scientists.

in a field like climate science there is no objective way to determine which papers are bad and which are good. It all comes down to a question of whether other scientists see the paper as a help or a threat.

That is why the lack of objectivity among influential academics in the field matters. It leaves us wondering what is really going on because we don't have anyone able to be a contrarian for the sake of being contrarian to find holes in our knowledge and protect against group think.

you speak to a 20-year history of "BadMen"... yet whenever this folly of yours rises you always revert back to and trot out something from Hackergate. Surely there must be more... more - yes? Surely you and your cadre of denierBlogScientists must have a collective database of all those instances of "BadMen". Surely you must have something to support your want to impugn the integrity of all world-wide scientists working in climate-change related fields - surely!

more pointedly, you should have at ready-reach, a list of all the poor ole' DenierMen being kept down by the wascally ScienceMan - surely you can name the names - surely!

Offline waldo

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #457 on: May 13, 2019, 12:12:19 pm »
what do you call fake skeptics and deniers group think?

hey TimG, by ignoring the question are you implying there is no such thing as group think within your trusted cadre of fake-skeptics and deniers?

Offline waldo

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #458 on: May 13, 2019, 12:16:27 pm »
The trouble with climate science is there is no way to "replicate" any claim because experiments cannot be done. "replication" in climate science typically means using a different way to look at the same data and getting the same answer. Except that kind of replication is extremely subject to reporting bias because researchers tend to assume that results that fail to replicate are some how "wrong" and never publish them (or never being allowed to publish them).

for all your sanctimonious blowhardiness YOU don't even understand the fundamental distinction between replicability and reproducibility!  ;D Would you like a do-over sir?

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #459 on: May 13, 2019, 04:15:24 pm »
  in a field like climate science there is no objective way to determine which papers are bad and which are good. It all comes down to a question of whether other scientists see the paper as a help or a threat. 

It doesn't matter if there's no objective way.  Subjectivity is a fact of life.  We aim for objectivity and we count on it, knowing that true objectivity is impossible.  You must be horrified with the idea of a judicial system also.

Offline TimG

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #460 on: May 13, 2019, 04:42:27 pm »
It doesn't matter if there's no objective way.  Subjectivity is a fact of life.  We aim for objectivity and we count on it, knowing that true objectivity is impossible.  You must be horrified with the idea of a judicial system also.
Funny you mention that. The judicial system is a good example of methods we use to find the truth when the evidence is sparse, subjective and/or conflicting. In the judicial system you have a prosecutor that makes the case for conviction and the defendant who makes the case against. The jury, chosen from members of the public, decides whether the prosecutor made the case. IOW, the system makes a space for contrarians and would never consider silencing the defendant because the prosecutors have reached a "consensus". This is model I have in mind when I say I would have more confidence in climate science if the consensus was only 80%. This is model people want to follow when they talk about red-team/blue-team analysis.

Since you now seem to acknowledge that subjectivity is a fact of life perhaps we can talk about how to fix the system to better deal with the world that exists rather than keep the one based on the "impartial, objective academic" fantasy?
« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 04:53:12 pm by TimG »

Offline Omni

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #461 on: May 13, 2019, 05:21:07 pm »
Funny you mention that. The judicial system is a good example of methods we use to find the truth when the evidence is sparse, subjective and/or conflicting. In the judicial system you have a prosecutor that makes the case for conviction and the defendant who makes the case against. The jury, chosen from members of the public, decides whether the prosecutor made the case. IOW, the system makes a space for contrarians and would never consider silencing the defendant because the prosecutors have reached a "consensus". This is model I have in mind when I say I would have more confidence in climate science if the consensus was only 80%. This is model people want to follow when they talk about red-team/blue-team analysis.

Since you nhttps://cdn.smfboards.com/caf/images/bbc/table.gifow seem to acknowledge that subjectivity is a fact of life perhaps we can talk about how to fix the system to better deal with the world that exists rather than keep the one based on the "impartial, objective academic" fantasy?

One problem I see you are still having is thinking the evidence with regard to the global warming issue is somehow "sparse".

Offline Granny

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #462 on: May 13, 2019, 05:38:04 pm »
It is a current problem as long as there are people who refuse to acknowledge the systematic problems with the field and enable scientists who act unprofessionally.
No it isn't a current problem TimG:
No papers have been suppressed.


Offline TimG

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #463 on: May 13, 2019, 05:56:10 pm »
No it isn't a current problem TimG:
No papers have been suppressed.
You make a claim which is simply not possible to know. The only thing we can do is look at how climate scientists act and what they say and pass judgement over whether these are the type of people that would ignore or suppress evidence that did not fit their preferred narrative. It is simply not plausible to argue that a person who spouts over heated rhetoric about a planetary emergency would not hide evidence that undermines their rhetoric. People who have the integrity to follow the evidence wherever it would lead would be much more careful about the claims they make in the first place and would most certainly not refer to people who disagree as "deniers".

Offline Omni

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #464 on: May 13, 2019, 06:01:05 pm »
You make a claim which is simply not possible to know. The only thing we can do is look at how climate scientists act and what they say and pass judgement over whether these are the type of people that would ignore or suppress evidence that did not fit their preferred narrative. It is simply not plausible to argue that a person who spouts over heated rhetoric about a planetary emergency would not hide evidence that undermines their rhetoric. People who have the integrity to follow the evidence wherever it would lead would be much more careful about the claims they make in the first place and would most certainly not refer to people who disagree as "deniers".

You mean people such as Donald Trump who ignore and suppress the evidence? Not my type.
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