Author Topic: Climate Change  (Read 28719 times)

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Offline ?Impact

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #180 on: November 23, 2018, 04:14:28 pm »
If we could eaisily introduce more hydro we'd do so instead of expensive and less reliable solar and wind power.

Hydro is not cheap. Yes, if you put up a huge dam you get get somewhat reliable hydro energy at a massive cost. Of course your reservoir may not last as long as you think, check out what is happening to lake Mead feeding the Hoover dam in the past 18 years. The same is happening to upstream lakes that feed it like lake Powell.

Best estimates are the sun will shine for several billion years more.

Offline Omni

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #181 on: November 23, 2018, 04:20:48 pm »
Last I heard they were cutting down a forest to build a coal mine.  It can't be that reliable.

I guess the naysayers will always be so. Carry on.
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guest7

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #182 on: November 23, 2018, 04:21:24 pm »
I guess the naysayers will always be so. Carry on.

Are they not now?  They were in October.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #183 on: November 23, 2018, 04:44:13 pm »
A shell game only made possible because they maintain enough fossil fuel production capability to cover the gaps and force these fossil fuel plants to curtail production when renewable production is high (at great cost). This allows politicians to pretend that a large portion of power was produced by renewable when coal plants are really what keep the lights on.

If you look at TOTAL energy consumption wind and solar are less than 5% despite massive subsidies and preferential regulations:



Apparently not really a "shell game"

Germany produces enough renewable energy in six months to power country's households for an entire year

https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/renewable-energy-germany-six-months-year-solar-power-wind-farms-a8427356.html

Offline TimG

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #184 on: November 23, 2018, 04:49:58 pm »
Germany produces enough renewable energy in six months to power country's households for an entire year
It is a shell game because the production does not match up with when households actually need the power. Germany uses fossil fuel plants to manage the mismatch between supply and demand. The net result is renewables are an expensive bauble that are not actually needed to keep the lights on because the backup fossil fuel capacity is more than capable of doing that. OTOH, if those fossil fuel plants when offline Germany would be in trouble.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 04:52:21 pm by TimG »

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #185 on: November 23, 2018, 04:53:24 pm »
The net result is renewables are an expensive bauble that are not actually needed to keep the lights on because the backup fossil fuel capacity is more than capable of doing that.

You are completely ignoring all the fossil fuel that is not burned when the sun shines.

guest7

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #186 on: November 23, 2018, 04:54:37 pm »
OTOH, if those fossil fuel plants when offline Germany would be in trouble.

No, I'm pretty sure they're planning to cut down a forest to build a coal mine.  They'll be okay.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #187 on: November 23, 2018, 04:55:14 pm »
It is a shell game because the production does not match up with when households actually need the power. Germany uses fossil fuel plants to manage the mismatch between supply and demand. The next result is renewables are an expensive bauble that are not actually needed to keep the lights on because the backup fossil fuel capacity is more than capable of doing that. OTOH, if those fossil fuel plants when offline Germany would be in trouble.

Yes the sun does go down at night. That seems to be the naysayers best/only defense against renewables. They seem to ignore the sun does come back up every morning, and the fact that fossils will run out, but maybe not until we wreck the planet if we don't evolve.

guest7

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #188 on: November 23, 2018, 05:00:28 pm »
...maybe not until we wreck the planet if we don't evolve.

Now you're getting the hang of it.
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Offline waldo

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #189 on: November 23, 2018, 05:11:57 pm »
A shell game only made possible because they maintain enough fossil fuel production capability to cover the gaps and force these fossil fuel plants to curtail production when renewable production is high (at great cost). This allows politicians to pretend that a large portion of power was produced by renewable when coal plants are really what keep the lights on.

citation request

by the by...


Offline TimG

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #190 on: November 23, 2018, 05:15:27 pm »
You are completely ignoring all the fossil fuel that is not burned when the sun shines.
That is not exactly true when the plants need to be kept in standby mode so they can supply power immediately when renewables drop off. More importantly, if regulation did not force the fossil fuel plants to curtail production it would often be more cost effective to dump the solar/wind rather than to curtail fossil fuel production. This means the % of renewables is a fiction created by regulation rather than an emergent property of a sustainable power market.

Offline Omni

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #191 on: November 23, 2018, 05:20:02 pm »
That is not exactly true when the plants need to be kept in standby mode so they can supply power immediately when renewables drop off. More importantly, if regulation did not force the fossil fuel plants to curtail production it would often be more cost effective to dump the solar/wind rather than to curtail fossil fuel production. This means the % of renewables is a fiction created by regulation rather than an emergent property of a sustainable power market.

Seems liker you are basing your support for fossils totally on costs. Well guess what, it costs money to dig for oil and coal, and, they will run out. The sun for instance won't for a long time.

Offline waldo

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #192 on: November 23, 2018, 05:37:08 pm »
No, I'm pretty sure they're planning to cut down a forest to build a coal mine.  They'll be okay.

dude, you're not offering the necessary distinction: this is strictly the want of an existing utility company mining lignite... it wants to expand the current lignite mine. In any case:

German court orders suspension of Hambach Forest clearance --- https://www.dw.com/en/german-court-orders-suspension-of-hambach-forest-clearance/a-45764690


Offline waldo

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #193 on: November 23, 2018, 06:08:41 pm »
That is not exactly true when the plants need to be kept in standby mode so they can supply power immediately when renewables drop off. More importantly, if regulation did not force the fossil fuel plants to curtail production it would often be more cost effective to dump the solar/wind rather than to curtail fossil fuel production. This means the % of renewables is a fiction created by regulation rather than an emergent property of a sustainable power market.

geezaz! Is operating reserve just for (supply/demand) contingencies relative to renewables... just renewables?  ;D

a short few posts back you were asked for a cite in regards your statement, "force these fossil fuel plants to curtail production when renewable production is high (at great cost)"... and now, again, in this latest post you're beaking off about regulation forcing production curtailment. Citation request.

guest7

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #194 on: November 23, 2018, 06:09:49 pm »
dude, you're not offering the necessary distinction: this is strictly the want of an existing utility company mining lignite... it wants to expand the current lignite mine. In any case:

German court orders suspension of Hambach Forest clearance --- https://www.dw.com/en/german-court-orders-suspension-of-hambach-forest-clearance/a-45764690


It does seem to go against the grain, though, doesn't it? I mean, this is Germany, not the Phillipines.  If you can't trust the Deustch...

Still, I hadn't heard about the court ordered delay.  It does say it is carton related, so I wouldn't hold out a great deal of hope.
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