Author Topic: Climate Change  (Read 7734 times)

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Offline TimG

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #60 on: August 27, 2017, 10:17:51 pm »
Perhaps you are unaware that 149 countries signed onto the Paris accord, and 3 didn't. Nicaragua, Syria, and Oh yeah Donald Trump land. And many major US industries are  ignoring his ignorance and proceeding to adhere to the accord anyway. They understand the science, and the way to keep profits up.
Do you actually have any idea what the Paris accord requires of countries? A little hint: nothing. Each country sets its own targets which it can adjust as politicians realize that there is 0 chance that they will meet whatever imaginary numbers their predecessors came up with. Many republicans wanted Trump to stay in the accord because they felt the US would be in a better position to ensure future agreements are equally ineffective if they were part of the process.

IOW - Paris is nothing but virtue signalling for pretentious politicians. If companies jump on the bandwagon it is for the same reason.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #61 on: August 27, 2017, 10:41:18 pm »
Do you actually have any idea what the Paris accord requires of countries? A little hint: nothing. Each country sets its own targets which it can adjust as politicians realize that there is 0 chance that they will meet whatever imaginary numbers their predecessors came up with. Many republicans wanted Trump to stay in the accord because they felt the US would be in a better position to ensure future agreements are equally ineffective if they were part of the process.

IOW - Paris is nothing but virtue signalling for pretentious politicians. If companies jump on the bandwagon it is for the same reason.
Luckily industry leaders in the US are planning to adhere to the Paris accord, regardless of Trump. They see where the future is headed, and it ain't in coal.

Offline TimG

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #62 on: August 27, 2017, 11:18:20 pm »
Luckily industry leaders in the US are planning to adhere to the Paris accord, regardless of Trump. They see where the future is headed, and it ain't in coal.
Yep. The US future is natural gas. Wind and solar are toys that keep preening politicians happy but won't be the work horse that keeps the lights on.

Offline Omni

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #63 on: August 27, 2017, 11:43:05 pm »
Yep. The US future is natural gas. Wind and solar are toys that keep preening politicians happy but won't be the work horse that keeps the lights on.

Who do you think has the largest solar farm? Yep, the US. Your shares in gas pumps will simply continue to drop.
http://www.iflscience.com/technology/worlds-largest-solar-farm-goes-online-california/

Offline TimG

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #64 on: August 28, 2017, 12:22:02 am »
Who do you think has the largest solar farm? Yep, the US. Your shares in gas pumps will simply continue to drop.
I prefer reality instead of wishful thinking:
 0.6% of US energy needs are supplied by solar. Solar will remain a tiny fraction as long as there is no cost effective solution for the reliability problem. Today using solar means building natural gas plants as backups which is a waste of resources. It makes more sense to build the gas plant alone and skip the solar.

Offline Omni

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #65 on: August 28, 2017, 01:09:24 am »
I prefer reality instead of wishful thinking:
 0.6% of US energy needs are supplied by solar. Solar will remain a tiny fraction as long as there is no cost effective solution for the reliability problem. Today using solar means building natural gas plants as backups which is a waste of resources. It makes more sense to build the gas plant alone and skip the solar.
Solar + wind fastest growing industries even in Texas. You're apparently hiding from what is actually going on.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 09:42:48 am by jmt18325 »

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #66 on: August 28, 2017, 09:12:56 am »
When in doubt, argue against a point the other person didn't make.

Hey, Tim....nobody said solar power was the largest energy source in the United States. They're talking about transitioning here.

guest4

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #67 on: August 28, 2017, 10:49:13 am »
The so called "expert" is just another doom monger making predictions that will be shown to be false. Should I collect a timeline "climate doom" quotes over the last 20 years with deadlines that have long past? How many would it take to convince you that you can't take such people seriously? 

 Adaptation will always be cheaper and easier than expending resources trying to collect CO2.
 Only if you believe governments will continue to maintain unsustainable subsidies. In Europe renewable investors are discovering that the public has limited willingness to pay for overpriced and unreliable power.

South Australia recently discovered the price of a mindless obsession with renewables:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/state-politics/sa-blackouts-wind-farm-turbines-key-to-power-outages-report-finds/news-story/97967948bbd3f7644451ee02d61b14bf

Paid link, so have no idea what you are trying to prove with it.

Here's an interesting article that does seem to take a more reasoned approach; it criticizes the way in which the media talk about climate change, but also admits there is a problem that needs to be addressed and offers up some scenarios and numbers.

Quote
RCP2.6 is the ignored orphan. It provides no sad stories for journalists and no propaganda for activists. In a sane world it would be headline news, showing us a feasible future achievable with some work. But not like the revolution activists advocate.


Some interesting stuff there if anyone wants to take a look:  https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/07/29/the-ipcc-gives-us-good-news-about-climate-change-but-we-dont-listen/





Offline TimG

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #68 on: August 28, 2017, 11:03:07 am »
Hey, Tim....nobody said solar power was the largest energy source in the United States. They're talking about transitioning here.
And my point is it the "transition" is not going to happen given the currently available technology. Solar and wind can't be much more than 15% of grid production before the grid gets unstable. Low cost storage would completely change the economics but there is no plausible solution that on the horizon (PR statements by companies selling tech is not the same as a plausible solution).

Offline TimG

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #69 on: August 28, 2017, 11:17:59 am »
Here's an interesting article that does seem to take a more reasoned approach; it criticizes the way in which the media talk about climate change, but also admits there is a problem that needs to be addressed and offers up some scenarios and numbers.
The IPCC reports frequently contradict alarmist rhetoric but I point that out I often get some yahoo whinging about how I am ignoring the "97% consensus".

The article essentially makes my point that natural evolution of tech and society will "fix" the problem without any need for radical interventions by government - just like what happened with the over population/resource depletion panics in the 70s.

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #70 on: August 28, 2017, 11:21:49 am »
The IPCC reports frequently contradict alarmist rhetoric but I point that out I often get some yahoo whinging about how I am ignoring the "97% consensus".

The article essentially makes my point that natural evolution of tech and society will "fix" the problem without any need for radical interventions by government - just like what happened with the over population/resource depletion panics in the 70s.

Isn't the 97% consensus that humans are the major contributors to global warming?  And the page I linked to suggests that it will be human behavior that reduces emissions, and prevents disaster.  To me, this page presents a viewpoint that is between yours and the 'alarmists'. 

Offline TimG

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #71 on: August 28, 2017, 11:28:26 am »
Isn't the 97% consensus that humans are the major contributors to global warming?  And the page I linked to suggests that it will be human behavior that reduces emissions, and prevents disaster.  To me, this page presents a viewpoint that is between yours and the 'alarmists'.
The issue for me is government policy. Most CO2 reduction policies are shameless scams that will not accomplish the stated objective or will only do so at a cost much greater than the likely harm. Eliminate policies that make no rational sense and I would not have any issue with working to reduce emissions. The trouble is the alarmist rhetoric which creates a false sense of urgency pushes politicians to adopt bad policies in order to pretend to do something.
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guest4

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #72 on: August 28, 2017, 11:34:27 am »
The issue for me is government policy. Most CO2 reduction policies are shameless scams that will not accomplish the stated objective or will only do so at a cost much greater than the likely harm. Eliminate policies that make no rational sense and I would not have any issue with working to reduce emissions. The trouble is the alarmist rhetoric which creates a false sense of urgency pushes politicians to adopt bad policies in order to pretend to do something.

So you say, but there seems to be good evidence that pricing carbon does work to reduce emissions so as an initial measure, it seems to be effective.  It may become less necessary as industries work towards providing green alternatives, though no doubt it will be hard to persuade governments to give it up. 


Offline TimG

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #73 on: August 28, 2017, 11:42:22 am »
So you say, but there seems to be good evidence that pricing carbon does work to reduce emissions so as an initial measure, it seems to be effective.  It may become less necessary as industries work towards providing green alternatives, though no doubt it will be hard to persuade governments to give it up.
I am in favour of a carbon tax that is connected to reasonable estimates of future harms (e.g. social cost of carbon). But AGW alarmists don't like that solution because a reasonable price for carbon emissions is not enough to change behavoir because the cost of the alternatives is so high. The end result is are smoke and mirror scams designed to look like something is being done when in reality nothing changes.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #74 on: August 28, 2017, 12:17:43 pm »
I am in favour of a carbon tax that is connected to reasonable estimates of future harms (e.g. social cost of carbon). But AGW alarmists don't like that solution because a reasonable price for carbon emissions is not enough to change behavoir because the cost of the alternatives is so high. The end result is are smoke and mirror scams designed to look like something is being done when in reality nothing changes.

It does work, we've had a carbon tax in BC for some time and it has reduced emissions and last I looked was basically revenue neutral. It seems it's as simple as making people think and plan ahead, such as making one trip to the grocery store to get everything instead of going back three times.