Author Topic: Climate Change  (Read 8004 times)

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Offline wilber

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #1095 on: July 05, 2021, 12:59:17 pm »
Per capita, we’re the worst polluter in the world. 

Canada has to take a leadership role in the world, since we’re one of the richest countries.  To do otherwise is irresponsible and will simply promote the status quo for the populace countries to not do anything.  It will be all about “remaining competitive” if China has to reduce their total emissions but Canada can keep polluting at the same rate we are, which is much higher.

The simple fact is that rich countries got rich by polluting and now will have to bear more of the cost to curb emissions.  We will need to figure out how, implement it, and export that knowledge and tech to the rest of the world.  To do anything else will mean no one does anything.

But just be realistic in understanding that our setting an example will have little to do with actually slowing climate change. Do you actually think that countries like China and India care about what kind of example Canada sets? One of the things that will make TMX viable is India planning on doubling its refining capacity in the next five years.
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Offline MH

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #1096 on: July 05, 2021, 01:00:36 pm »
But just be realistic in understanding that our setting an example will have little to do with actually slowing climate change. Do you actually think that countries like China and India care about what kind of example Canada sets? One of the things that will make TMX viable is India planning on doubling its refining capacity in the next five years.

So, signing of treaties isn't about setting an example it's about living up to your end 

Offline wilber

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #1097 on: July 05, 2021, 01:38:41 pm »
So, signing of treaties isn't about setting an example it's about living up to your end

And what will that end be? We are great on grand gestures.

Trudeau just announced there will be no sales of ICE cars after 2035. A grand gesture but what is he doing to make them actually usable? Charging facilities are a dogs breakfast of systems, some private, some public, some accessible to everyone, others only to certain individuals, organizations or brands. No national standards like we have for simple gas pumps. No national building or retrofitting standards for home charging, particularly for multi family dwellings like condos and a patchwork of provincial and municipal standards. No accommodation for people who have no off street parking with charging capability. He is talking about another 600 million to provide incentives to buy EV's but if they gave 5K to everyone to replace one of the over 22 million light duty vehicles registered in Canada, the bill would be 110 billion.  It all sounds really great though.
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Offline MH

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #1098 on: July 05, 2021, 02:28:15 pm »
1. And what will that end be? We are great on grand gestures.

2. Trudeau just announced there will be no sales of ICE cars after 2035. A grand gesture but what is he doing to make them actually usable? 
1. It will be better than openly flouting a signed agreement.

2. Following the US is what he is doing.

Offline wilber

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #1099 on: July 05, 2021, 02:45:32 pm »
1. It will be better than openly flouting a signed agreement.

2. Following the US is what he is doing.

I'm not saying we shouldn't get rid of ICE's as much as possible but you have to make sure the infrastructure is in place to do it. I don't see the feds doing anything much at all. The US isn't doing it, a few states are.
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #1100 on: July 05, 2021, 03:25:24 pm »
Per capita, we’re the worst polluter in the world. 

We're a highly industrialized country that has an extremely spread-out population across the 2nd largest geographic country in the world that has cold winters.  It's not like we're just wasteful polluting a-holes.  We're going to be higher than the vast majority of countries in per capita emissions no matter what.

We also have a ton of high-carbon oil reserves and an oil-dependent economy.

Again, we have 38 million people out of 7 billion.  Climate change doesn't care about per capita, it cares about total global emissions.  We have to do our part but we also shouldn't compare ourselves 1-to-1 to ie: most European countries.
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #1101 on: July 05, 2021, 03:29:23 pm »
But just be realistic in understanding that our setting an example will have little to do with actually slowing climate change. Do you actually think that countries like China and India care about what kind of example Canada sets? One of the things that will make TMX viable is India planning on doubling its refining capacity in the next five years.

Is it worth it to go to extra lengths and harm our economy even more just to "set an example".  It's ridiculous.  At what cost to us?  We shouldn't be trying to lead the world in fighting climate change.  That's very expensive with not a big benefit to actual global emissions.  We should be doing our part, not shooting ourselves in the head just so we can pat ourselves on the back and walk around smug wagging our finger at everyone else.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #1102 on: July 05, 2021, 03:35:37 pm »
So, signing of treaties isn't about setting an example it's about living up to your end

I agree.  But then, what do you do when many of the countries you compete against economically isn't living up to their part of the bargain?  Then we're just chumps.

The sad thing is that the USA needs to be leader in this, and set examples.  Not holding my breathe on this.

I fully support green measures even when it harms our economy, as long as most of the big guys and our main economic competitors are doing it too for the most part.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline MH

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #1103 on: July 05, 2021, 05:27:43 pm »
California banned gas cars already.
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Offline wilber

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #1104 on: July 05, 2021, 05:41:52 pm »
 :D
California banned gas cars already.

Sales banned 2035

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Offline wilber

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #1105 on: July 05, 2021, 06:35:29 pm »
Politicians can ban anything they want but if the technology and infrastructure isn't there to make it work, any date is just a number.
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Offline waldo

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #1106 on: July 05, 2021, 06:54:02 pm »
by the by - goal setting... what a concept! Wait now, how's about hydrogen fuel cells... me likee - and you member wilber?

Offline wilber

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #1107 on: July 05, 2021, 07:18:25 pm »
by the by - goal setting... what a concept! Wait now, how's about hydrogen fuel cells... me likee - and you member wilber?

Goal setting is fine, even better when it is up to others and not you to meet your goals.

Liquid hydrogen must be stored below -259 C and it has about a quarter of the energy density by volume of gasoline or diesel. Plus you need a way of producing it in volume that has low CO2 emissions in its own right. Most hydrogen is produced from natural gas. There is a process being explored of combing it with ammonia to keep it liquid at ambient temperatures but that will have its own issues and there is still the low energy density. Might be good for applications where storage size isn’t a big issue.

There is no silver bullet replacement for petroleum, that’s why we are still using it after all these years.
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Offline waldo

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #1108 on: July 06, 2021, 12:04:57 am »
member wilber... sure infrastructure is limited (today only selling in California), but these hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles are being produced - these aren't "proof of concept"/prototypes:
- Toyota Mirai
- Honda Clarity
- Hyundai Nexo

=> Liberal government's hydrogen strategy:

=> NRCAN - Seizing the Opportunities for Hydrogen --- A Call to Action (December, 2020)

=> Green Hydrogen - Hydro Quebec

=> Canada, Alberta sign deal for $1.3B hydrogen plant in Edmonton - natural gas source

Offline wilber

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Re: Climate Change
« Reply #1109 on: July 06, 2021, 07:44:31 pm »
Production of hydrogen from electrolysis requires massive amounts of electricity.

The great majority of hydrogen is now produced by steam methane reforming which uses natural gas  to heat steam to between 1300 and 1800 degrees F to extract hydrogen from methane. That is what the Edmonton facility will use.

You are still left with the low temperature storage issues and low energy density by volume issues. Those are simple physics.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC