Author Topic: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us  (Read 1019 times)

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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #60 on: November 26, 2017, 07:48:11 pm »
Well, in discussing capitalism saying what it has done in the past will only go so far to defend the status quo.  And past instances of Marxism, or likely Marxism generally won't suffice as replacements.
The main failures of 20th century communism was it was run by totalitarian governments & the economy was centrally planned by the government.  Marx wanted a "dictatorship of the proletariat" but all people got was a dictatorship of some communist government elites to replace control by bourgeoisie elites , and the proletariat had control of almost nothing, even far less control than in capitalism or liberal democracy.

So a new system of Marxism needs to be a true dictatorship of the proletariat, which is democratic and the workers control most everything in the economy, not the government.  Maybe Democratic Socialism could work, who knows.  The problem I have with the article is it criticizes capitalism but says virtually nothing about how Democratic Socialism is going to solve our problems.  I need details, I need high-level economic plans, not pie-in-the-sky naive hopeful utopian BS the far left is so often guilty of.

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You acknowledge that there are drawbacks, so the conversation can begin.  The 'new system' has to be new, also, that it recognizes that any new system isn't good just because it's "new".  See Proportional Rep voting.

Exactly, see above.  An ideal system would take the good parts of capitalism and remove/change/reverse the negative parts, as much as it can be done.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2017, 08:08:25 am by CuckFace »
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Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #61 on: November 26, 2017, 08:50:57 pm »

So a new system of Marxism needs to be a true dictatorship of the proletariat, which is democratic and the workers control most everything in the economy, not the government.  Maybe Democratic Socialism could work, who knows.  The problem I have with the article is it criticizes capitalism but says virtually nothing about how Democratic Socialism is going to solve our problems.  I need details, I need high-level economic plans, not pie-in-the-sky naive hopeful utopian BS the far left is so often guilty of.

I think the article says that a system geared towards maximizing consumption will be part of the problem.  So socialism isn't exempt either.

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Exactly, see above.  An ideal system would take the good parts of capitalism and remove/change/reverse the negative parts, as much as it can be done.

As I said above, the key may be to simply embed money with tracking systems and form publics to study the migration of money.

Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #62 on: November 26, 2017, 08:51:18 pm »
Wait.  I DIDN'T say that.  But I am saying it now.

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #63 on: November 26, 2017, 09:34:07 pm »
Pretending that the earth is already **** will ensure it will be, sooner rather than later.

The Earth is going to be just fine.  It's the people who are ****.
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Offline TimG

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #64 on: November 27, 2017, 01:44:44 am »
1. Ok.  But there isn't incentive to take big risks and provide big improvements to the economy, eg. invest in new energy sources.  Instead you can just park your money or invest it in something.
Telsa is funded by rich people parking their money by 'investing in something'. Telsa's entire product line can be classed as 'toys for the rich'. In fact many technologies that we consider essential today were funded because they were of interest to the rich with money to spend on pointless consumption. So it is simply wrong to say that spending on consumption does not lead to important innovations. I would go further and say technological progress depends on rich people being willing to risk money they can afford to lose on products that may or may not be useful. Progress would be stifled if society had to depend on the middle class spending money they can't afford to lose or government bureaucrats picking 'winners'.

2. Nonetheless, it's a problem and it's easier for wealthier entities to hide their money as they have more resources at their disposal.
The ultra-rich are not dependent on a single states and shuffle their money around. The merely upper class that form the majority of the so called 1% don't have a lot of options that do not involve breaking the law. So it is false to say it is easier for them - they just have more reason to.
 
3. I accept your point of view.
Thx.

Offline Omni

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #65 on: November 27, 2017, 01:56:25 am »
Telsa is funded by rich people parking their money by 'investing in something'. Telsa's entire product line can be classed as 'toys for the rich'. In fact many technologies that we consider essential today were funded because they were of interest to the rich with money to spend on pointless consumption. So it is simply wrong to say that spending on consumption does not lead to important innovations. I would go further and say technological progress depends on rich people being willing to risk money they can afford to lose on products that may or may not be useful. Progress would be stifled if society had to depend on the middle class spending money they can't afford to lose or government bureaucrats picking 'winners'.
The ultra-rich are not dependent on a single states and shuffle their money around. The merely upper class that form the majority of the so called 1% don't have a lot of options that do not involve breaking the law. So it is false to say it is easier for them - they just have more reason to.
 Thx.

In the same way that rich people were able to afford Ford's model T's etc., the ICE vehicle replaced horse and carriage, the same process will soon usher in the end of the ICE vehicle.

Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #66 on: November 27, 2017, 05:54:21 am »
Telsa is funded by rich people parking their money by 'investing in something'. Telsa's entire product line can be classed as 'toys for the rich'. In fact many technologies that we consider essential today were funded because they were of interest to the rich with money to spend on pointless consumption. So it is simply wrong to say that spending on consumption does not lead to important innovations. I would go further and say technological progress depends on rich people being willing to risk money they can afford to lose on products that may or may not be useful. Progress would be stifled if society had to depend on the middle class spending money they can't afford to lose or government bureaucrats picking 'winners'.

Teslsa is the exception, and I remember now that the criticism of low-risk investment came from something Musk himself said.  But it's not about investing in consumer goods, but in products/services that just steal people away from other similar goods/services.  I wish I had a way to characterize it better.

Tesla is not an example of what I was criticizing because it is/was risky and innovative.

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The ultra-rich are not dependent on a single states and shuffle their money around. The merely upper class that form the majority of the so called 1% don't have a lot of options that do not involve breaking the law. So it is false to say it is easier for them - they just have more reason to.
 

Nonetheless, there is a problem of community there.  Lack of trust, or deceit... both are part of that problem.   If the nations of the world get their act together then it will be the end of hiding your money, but there's also the spectre of blockchain.

Offline TimG

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #67 on: November 27, 2017, 07:39:18 am »
Telsa is the exception
Hardly. Graphics cards and the GPUs that run them were developed originally to supply the need for gaming and ****. These graphic cards went on to enable a new generation of computer applications that could only occur because rich people who wanted play games paid for the R&D required. These GPUs are now even used to run the global bitcoin network.

Nonetheless, there is a problem of community there.  Lack of trust, or deceit... both are part of that problem.   If the nations of the world get their act together then it will be the end of hiding your money, but there's also the spectre of blockchain.
The underground economy is 2.3% of GDP or 45 billion. That is a lot of lost tax revenue because millions of Canadian regularly evade taxes by paying cash. If there is lack of trust it is because the country is filled with shameless hypocrites who would rather point fingers at other people rather than look at their own behavior.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #68 on: November 27, 2017, 08:24:59 am »
In the same way that rich people were able to afford Ford's model T's etc., the ICE vehicle replaced horse and carriage, the same process will soon usher in the end of the ICE vehicle.

Not if ICE vehicles remain cheaper & more convenient than electric vehicles.  I hope EV's get there I really do, but I'm not yet convinced.  EV's won't ever be successful until they appeal to people who buy Toyota's and Honda's, not just those that buy BMW's & Porche's.  People buy Toyota's/Honda's because their combo of price/reliability/gas-efficiency makes them the best value.

And as I said, it doesn't matter much for the environment if EV's become mainstream if the charging stations are powered by an energy grid that largely uses fossil fuels like coal & natural gas, which are cheaper electricity sources than solar/wind so far.  There's a reason why solar, wind, & EV's have been much hyped but haven't taken over:  they don't yet make economic sense for people.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2018, 03:40:31 pm by Moonlight Graham »
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Offline JBG

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #69 on: January 02, 2018, 03:14:42 pm »
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/11/20/opinion/climate-capitalism-crisis.html?smid=fb-share&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fm.facebook.com%2F

I have been saving this essay, as I feared reading it.  I feared it would sway me, and it did a little.  I didn't need to be swayed that the system needs to be changed.  It does, and is always changing as an open system does.  But the degree of change required, according to this, demands a complete re-founding of our principles.  It says that we can no longer afford an economic system that allows individual freedom to pursue capitalistic initiatives.

The thing that sways me is the statement that it's the status quo now needs to be defended.  I have always asked people proposing a change to our system to propose something better, and now I think I will stop saying that as it implies that there really isn't anything better.   

What isn't better, however, is governmental central planning, and technocracy.  Concentration of power.  Closed systems.  And yet a full change isn't possible with a majority (strong majority) of the people unconvinced that change is required.  It's a quandary.

So... the topic for this thread is:

1. Accepting that wholesale change is needed, can it be done within a democratic framework ?  Can it be done in a global context ?  Can it be done ?
2. Accepting that wholesale change is needed, what does the new system look like ?

Of course, this sounds like and probably is Marxism but that's for the answer to #2 above.

Please if you want to discuss whether Climate Change is real, or whether enacting social/economic change to address it is a good idea then that's off-topic for this thread.  We have a lot of threads on that topic, but I want to find out if people on here have ideas about massive global social change.

If your opinion is that it would be a disaster then please say so.  I don't disagree with that either.
What's obvious to me is that the people promoting a climate change agenda want Marxism or at th very least Fabian, or soft socialism. That's why the Paris Climate Accords are an elaborate money redistribution scheme. The leaders, in their mind, know best and won't brook any opposition.

The response when Trump pulled the U.S. out of the climate accords was hysterical.  They want to glam onto a huge flow of funds to distribute in accordance with a social justice agenda. This has very little to do with climate as even the stated benefits of Paris are a very small reduction of an increase that would occur in the future. The article is spot on; this is not something we want to try.
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Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #70 on: January 20, 2018, 10:07:48 am »
The wealth distribution accusation strikes me as a conspiracy theory - especially when no alternative is suggested.

This article is a very neoliberal take, as opposed to Marxist.  Basically, the system needs to be adjusted to charge companies for the impact they cause. Simple.

https://www.truthdig.com/articles/climate-change-result-greatest-market-failure-world-ever-seen/
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #71 on: March 17, 2018, 11:33:53 am »
This was an interesting read on the hypocrisy of China and its claims about cutting back on CO2.

http://driving.ca/auto-news/news/motor-mouth-the-inconvenient-truth-about-china-and-norways-ev-subsidies
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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #72 on: March 17, 2018, 11:45:11 am »
The wealth distribution accusation strikes me as a conspiracy theory
Especially when Marxism explicitly is not about the redistribution of wealth. He explicitly stated that raising wages doesn’t help the working class. Marxism is about the reclamation of their human nature, ie, complete control of their labour and the products of their labour. Human nature for Marx is about making stuff, especially the things we need to survival. When that’s out of our hands, he very essence of being human no longer belongs to us.

This is also why there’s neve been a Marxist country. No Marxist project allowed its citizens to reclaim their productive nature. In fact, labour was controlled even more by an administrative class. Marxist countries simply turned the government into the bourgeoisie.

Offline JBG

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #73 on: March 17, 2018, 03:44:41 pm »
The wealth distribution accusation strikes me as a conspiracy theory - especially when no alternative is suggested.
Have you read the accords? Read them and you'll get my point.
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Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #74 on: March 17, 2018, 04:40:21 pm »
Have you read the accords? Read them and you'll get my point.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Agreement

Looked for something on there, didn't find it.