Author Topic: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us  (Read 676 times)

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Offline bcsapper

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #30 on: November 25, 2017, 10:15:05 pm »
Here's a little backup for you to read over.

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2014/air-pollution/en/

I've worked in air quaity most of my life.  I already know that stuff.  It supports my contention that air pollution is curtailed because of its health effects.  Why do you think it's curtailed?
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Offline Omni

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #31 on: November 25, 2017, 10:19:27 pm »
I've worked in air quaity most of my life.  I already know that stuff.  It supports my contention that air pollution is curtailed because of its health effects.  Why do you think it's curtailed?

I suggest you take that up with one of the 7 million scheduled to die this year.

Offline bcsapper

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #32 on: November 25, 2017, 10:21:20 pm »
I suggest you take that up with one of the 7 million scheduled to die this year.

Or one of the millions saved by the curtailing of air pollution wherever it has been curtailed.  I'll do them.  They'll be happier.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #33 on: November 25, 2017, 10:24:18 pm »
Or one of the millions saved by the curtailing of air pollution wherever it has been curtailed.  I'll do them.  They'll be happier.

Yet another feeble attempt at deflection. Carry on.

Offline bcsapper

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #34 on: November 25, 2017, 10:26:24 pm »
Yet another feeble attempt at deflection. Carry on.

Well, eventually one of us has to stop.

You win.
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #35 on: November 25, 2017, 10:41:41 pm »
Even if you could create a better system than capitalism, how the heck are you going to convince every major country to change over to it simply for the sake of the environment? How will you convince China to change when their gov has an iron grip on the country and has economically benefited tremendously from the status quo in recent decades?  How will you convince people to drop the profit motive and exchange having more money for a healthier environment and reduced global warming?

No matter what system is in place, fossil fuels are cheaper than renewable energy like wind/solar etc.  Electric vehicles also need to run off the fossil fuel power grid, so even if electric cars had no issues with batteries or charging station availability they would still largely be running off dirty energy.

So what needs to happen to significantly tackle climate change no matter what system is in place is for the masses to choose to have more expensive renewable energy powering cities which will therefore increase hydro prices and the cost of virtually all products/services.  Are people across the globe willing to sacrifice their standard of living for the sake of the environment?  At least in the short or medium term until technology may discover a renewable energy source cheaper than fossil fuels?  So far the masses have said overwhelmingly "no".
« Last Edit: November 25, 2017, 10:43:31 pm by CuckFace »
"The economy has been relatively strong but Trudeau has chosen to run deficits year after year & has said will continue to do so well into the future.  This means we'll be in a worse & more vulnerable financial position when a recession hits when we HAVE to run deficits again." - Me, Oct. 3, 2019

Offline Omni

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #36 on: November 25, 2017, 11:02:40 pm »
Even if you could create a better system than capitalism, how the heck are you going to convince every major country to change over to it simply for the sake of the environment? How will you convince China to change when their gov has an iron grip on the country and has economically benefited tremendously from the status quo in recent decades?  How will you convince people to drop the profit motive and exchange having more money for a healthier environment and reduced global warming?

No matter what system is in place, fossil fuels are cheaper than renewable energy like wind/solar etc.  Electric vehicles also need to run off the fossil fuel power grid, so even if electric cars had no issues with batteries or charging station availability they would still largely be running off dirty energy.

So what needs to happen to significantly tackle climate change no matter what system is in place is for the masses to choose to have more expensive renewable energy powering cities which will therefore increase hydro prices and the cost of virtually all products/services.  Are people across the globe willing to sacrifice their standard of living for the sake of the environment?  At least in the short or medium term until technology may discover a renewable energy source cheaper than fossil fuels?  So far the masses have said overwhelmingly "no".

China, India, and much of Europe are already moving away from fossil's to renewables. What if Europe for instance took the over 100 billion euro subsidy they provide for fossil fuels currently and put it into energy supplies that won't help kill you now, and will inevitably run out one day? Capturing 1/10 of 1% of the solar energy that hits us each day would keep all the lights on. Pretending that the earth is already **** will ensure it will be, sooner rather than later. 

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #37 on: November 25, 2017, 11:46:44 pm »
China, India, and much of Europe are already moving away from fossil's to renewables. What if Europe for instance took the over 100 billion euro subsidy they provide for fossil fuels currently and put it into energy supplies that won't help kill you now, and will inevitably run out one day? Capturing 1/10 of 1% of the solar energy that hits us each day would keep all the lights on. Pretending that the earth is already **** will ensure it will be, sooner rather than later.

Well another major cost-saver for getting off fossil uel would be not having to worry about protecting oil security in the middle-east so saving the money on all those wars & military bases/equipment etc. and mostly ending the war on terror.
"The economy has been relatively strong but Trudeau has chosen to run deficits year after year & has said will continue to do so well into the future.  This means we'll be in a worse & more vulnerable financial position when a recession hits when we HAVE to run deficits again." - Me, Oct. 3, 2019

Offline MH

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2017, 05:23:45 am »
I disagree.

You disagree that it sways me ?  I disagree.

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  Capitalism has worked spectacularly in creating technology/innovation, efficiency, and overall wealth production etc. The other major Marxist-inspired system (Communism) has failed as equally spectacularly, where it killed many millions due to inefficiencies among other things.

Well, in discussing capitalism saying what it has done in the past will only go so far to defend the status quo.  And past instances of Marxism, or likely Marxism generally won't suffice as replacements.

Quote
So if you want to propose another replacement system for capitalism, which I'm not against (if it works better than capitalism, since capitalism has some serious drawbacks too) then the burden is on whomever creates this new system to show how it will be better.

You acknowledge that there are drawbacks, so the conversation can begin.  The 'new system' has to be new, also, that it recognizes that any new system isn't good just because it's "new".  See Proportional Rep voting.

Offline MH

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2017, 05:26:34 am »
Even if you could create a better system than capitalism, how the heck are you going to convince every major country to change over to it simply for the sake of the environment? How will you convince China to change when their gov has an iron grip on the country and has economically benefited tremendously from the status quo in recent decades?  How will you convince people to drop the profit motive and exchange having more money for a healthier environment and reduced global warming?

Capitalism has a hidden vulnerability that people never talk about, which is the money system.

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No matter what system is in place, fossil fuels are cheaper than renewable energy like wind/solar etc.  Electric vehicles also need to run off the fossil fuel power grid, so even if electric cars had no issues with batteries or charging station availability they would still largely be running off dirty energy.

What does cheaper mean ?  It means less human effort and material resources required for extraction right ?

Quote
So what needs to happen to significantly tackle climate change no matter what system is in place is for the masses to choose to have more expensive renewable energy powering cities which will therefore increase hydro prices and the cost of virtually all products/services.  Are people across the globe willing to sacrifice their standard of living for the sake of the environment?  At least in the short or medium term until technology may discover a renewable energy source cheaper than fossil fuels?  So far the masses have said overwhelmingly "no".

There could also be trade-offs there.  Turning back the clock even a half-century at this point doesn't put us back to anything like the stone age economically.  But this is still theoretical.

Offline MH

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #40 on: November 26, 2017, 10:58:38 am »
From my BLOG

Quote
When I comment online on criticisms of capitalisms, which I do often, I do it as such:
1) I also have problems with capitalism, however...
2) We don't have 'capitalism', we have a 'capitalism'/'socialism' hybrid which has been patchworkly designed through an open-flawed democratic process and...
3) If you have something better than this then have at it.  The world is hungry for your solution !

After reading the NY Times article, though, I have come to realize that it's easier for me to criticize empty criticism than to jump in and correct ideas or drive them towards an answer.  And as per 1) I do have problems with the system as it is anyway so I will endeavour to do my part, and help this discussion along and in Times font too, as an gesture of acknowledgment.

First of all, I'm not up to the task of redesigning a political-economic system that has been moulded and refined by every human who lived since Sumeria, so instead I'll just start the discussion.

I do have some ideas that might help the idea along.  I'll write the ones I can think of now and add more later.

1) Any design for human use must be a design for change, ie. it's robust and self-modifying.
2) Our current system is designed around the invention of 'money' as it occurred in ancient times, along with innovations such as coinage, and electronic money that have happened since.
3) Money is a social invention, as in a convention, as much as it is a technical invention.
4) It was so successful in that regard, that we regard money to be part of nature.  We need to understand it better if we're going to redesign the system.
5) Redesigning something on this scale means that systems will work in parallel as the new system supersedes the old over time.  There is no one-time 'cutover'.

We can start by discussing these points, and then begin the exciting brainstorming that will come out of it, considering our new technologies, the common social and moral spheres that are emerging globally and the reality of what is physically possible.

Offline MH

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #41 on: November 26, 2017, 11:02:10 am »
I therefore wonder that if McLuhan is correct, changing money will change the economic system automatically. 

Some of the problems of money today:

-Uses natural resources wastefully
-Human labour is not used in the best way, but deployed by the wealthy towards petty endeavours that will engender commerce through small changes in human behaviour
-Cheating taxes and social responsibility is easy; lying about your money is easy

Some technologies that could be used to change money:

-Facebook
-Blockchain

Offline bcsapper

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #42 on: November 26, 2017, 11:06:13 am »
I therefore wonder that if McLuhan is correct, changing money will change the economic system automatically. 

Some of the problems of money today:

-Uses natural resources wastefully
-Human labour is not used in the best way, but deployed by the wealthy towards petty endeavours that will engender commerce through small changes in human behaviour
-Cheating taxes and social responsibility is easy; lying about your money is easy

Some technologies that could be used to change money:

-Facebook
-Blockchain

Anything you change "money" into can eventually be called "money" once it has come into general use.  The new "money" will be pretty much indistinguishable from the old "money", unless you track it and force directions as it goes.  I don't think that's possible.  I don't even know how it could be done theoretically.
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Offline MH

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #43 on: November 26, 2017, 12:12:21 pm »
I guess that you never heard of blockchain.

Offline bcsapper

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #44 on: November 26, 2017, 12:20:43 pm »
I guess that you never heard of blockchain.

True...
Time for bed said Zebedee...