Author Topic: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us  (Read 676 times)

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Offline Omni

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2017, 07:25:47 pm »
That was my point, really.

Not in the way you think.  Most pollution is curtailed because of its heath effect on humans.  CO2 and Methane have never been a problem as far as health goes.  NO2, SO2, Mercury, Particulates, etc., have always been the major concern when it came to curtailing pollution.  And it was always site specific. 

I think it's too late, and even if if there was still time, there isn't the collective will.

If it's so well "curtailed" then why does WHO report 7 million deaths annually because of exposure to it? Throwing your hands in the air is the DEAD wrong approach.

Offline bcsapper

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2017, 07:56:02 pm »
If it's so well "curtailed" then why does WHO report 7 million deaths annually because of exposure to it? Throwing your hands in the air is the DEAD wrong approach.

I didn't say is was well curtailed.  I didn't even say it was curtailed in the sense you see it.  I gave a reason why it is curtailed.  How successful is the curtailing is dependent on the area.  I was comparing the reasons for curtailing emissions.

All the approaches are wrong when it comes to AGW, because it isn't going to make any difference anyway.  Unless you want to go with the forced sterilization approach?
Time for bed said Zebedee...

Offline Omni

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2017, 07:59:54 pm »
I didn't say is was well curtailed.  I didn't even say it was curtailed in the sense you see it.  I gave a reason why it is curtailed.  How successful is the curtailing is dependent on the area.  I was comparing the reasons for curtailing emissions.

All the approaches are wrong when it comes to AGW, because it isn't going to make any difference anyway.  Unless you want to go with the forced sterilization approach?

1. You did try and say it is curtailed, but obviously that flopped.

2. Luckily,people who understand the science aren't throwing their hands in the air as you seem to be.

Offline bcsapper

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2017, 08:09:13 pm »
1. You did try and say it is curtailed, but obviously that flopped.

2. Luckily,people who understand the science aren't throwing their hands in the air as you seem to be.

I'm no English teacher, and I can see you aren't either, but you do realise, at least,  that the word can mean what I intended it to mean?  Even if you do puport to know more than I what I actually meant?

Still not gonna do any good.  Should keep them employed for a while though.
Time for bed said Zebedee...

Offline Omni

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2017, 08:20:36 pm »
I'm no English teacher, and I can see you aren't either, but you do realise, at least,  that the word can mean what I intended it to mean?  Even if you do puport to know more than I what I actually meant?

Still not gonna do any good.  Should keep them employed for a while though.

1. So your version of curtailed kinda ignores the 7 million annual deaths.

2. Lets hope they remain employed until they can reverse or at least curtail the problem.

Offline bcsapper

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2017, 08:27:37 pm »
1. So your version of curtailed kinda ignores the 7 million annual deaths.

2. Lets hope they remain employed until they can reverse or at least curtail the problem.

It's a different meaning to the word.  How about, one of the reasons air pollution is curtailed is the effect it has on public health?  That doesn't attempt to say how much it is curtailed, or discuss what happens when it isn't.

They'll be dead.  I hope they have time to enjoy a well earned retirement.
Time for bed said Zebedee...

Offline Omni

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2017, 09:25:58 pm »
It's a different meaning to the word.  How about, one of the reasons air pollution is curtailed is the effect it has on public health?  That doesn't attempt to say how much it is curtailed, or discuss what happens when it isn't.

They'll be dead.  I hope they have time to enjoy a well earned retirement.

I already explained to you what happens when it isn't curtailed...7 million people die. But enough of going in your circles.

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2017, 09:44:08 pm »
Such ops ignore human nature. Humans succeed because they specialize. i.e. some people learn to make clothing well, others make stone tools well. There has to be a way to exchange the fruits of labour AND compensate people who are have a rare skill or use it more productively. Without the latter there is no incentive for people to produce more or get better. Some small societies have created cults/religion that convince people to share without special compensation but these societies are not sustainable because some people will invariably break free of the brain washing if they realize that the brainwashing is used to exploit them. In other societies an appeal to the "greater good" can work if the society is homogeneous. In heterogeneous, societies differences in groups will lead to resentments and a feeling that the "other" is not doing their share. Capitalism, like democracy, is not perfect but it is vastly superior to all others in terms of its ability to leverage human specialization for the greater good.

As a thought exercise to evaluate alternatives to capitalism consider how their are likely to perform on these points:

1) Respect an individual's autonomy - i.e. the ability to make their own choices.
2) Reward rare skills and/or better productivity;
3) Dealing with freeloaders;

I can't think of any system that can best capitalism with the caveat that capitalism depends on a system of rules and a bad set of rules can undermine the value of capitalism.

I see such ops as simply exercises where a writer takes their preexisting ideology and uses "climate change" as an excuse to push it. You could cross out "climate change" and insert "overpopulation" and the article would not change. So this op is not about climate change - change is just a means to an end. It is about capitalism.

Agreed.  Capitalism isn't perfect, it creates a "race to the bottom" in many respects, such as environmental pollution/degradation etc., but it's been so damn productive in creating goods, technology, & wealth to lift billions out of poverty that is has no peer.
"The economy has been relatively strong but Trudeau has chosen to run deficits year after year & has said will continue to do so well into the future.  This means we'll be in a worse & more vulnerable financial position when a recession hits when we HAVE to run deficits again." - Me, Oct. 3, 2019

Offline MH

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2017, 09:46:40 pm »
  We differ greatly, of course, in our propensity towards self destruction.

We should be able to do better than the goddamned dodo  :D  it didn't flee predators...

Offline MH

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2017, 09:56:14 pm »
Humans succeed because they specialize. i.e. some people learn to make clothing well, others make stone tools well. There has to be a way to exchange the fruits of labour AND compensate people who are have a rare skill or use it more productively. Without the latter there is no incentive for people to produce more or get better.

I'm going to break in and make some points.  I think specialization isn't a necessary factor for human's success.  It actually happened at the dawn of written history but ok.  Agree that a method of exchange is required, and compensation or incentive for performance, ie. meritocracy.
 
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Some small societies have created cults/religion that convince people to share without special compensation but these societies are not sustainable because some people will invariably break free of the brain washing if they realize that the brainwashing is used to exploit them. In other societies an appeal to the "greater good" can work if the society is homogeneous.

I'm intrigued by this cult, and especially in the escapees that broke free from the brainwashing.  What is that example ?

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In heterogeneous, societies differences in groups will lead to resentments and a feeling that the "other" is not doing their share. Capitalism, like democracy, is not perfect but it is vastly superior to all others in terms of its ability to leverage human specialization for the greater good.

We don't have capitalism any more than we have socialism, we have a negotiated hybrid.

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As a thought exercise to evaluate alternatives to capitalism consider how their are likely to perform on these points:

1) Respect an individual's autonomy - i.e. the ability to make their own choices.
2) Reward rare skills and/or better productivity;
3) Dealing with freeloaders;

Excellent discussion points and I think any economy has to deal with all of these aspects to be successful.  I also think, as I said, central planning is out.

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I can't think of any system that can best capitalism with the caveat that capitalism depends on a system of rules and a bad set of rules can undermine the value of capitalism.

Well... you're failing to imagine the future but that's ok.  It's difficult to do so.

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I see such ops as simply exercises where a writer takes their preexisting ideology and uses "climate change" as an excuse to push it. You could cross out "climate change" and insert "overpopulation" and the article would not change. So this op is not about climate change - change is just a means to an end. It is about capitalism.

I don't think you can blame overpopulation on capitalism anywhere as easily. 

Once again, these are the questions - let's see if we can answer them.


1. Accepting that wholesale change is needed, can it be done within a democratic framework ?  Can it be done in a global context ?  Can it be done ?
2. Accepting that wholesale change is needed, what does the new system look like ?

Offline bcsapper

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2017, 10:04:11 pm »
I already explained to you what happens when it isn't curtailed...7 million people die. But enough of going in your circles.

It's funny how you need to do that.  To deliberately misinterpret what people say.  Is it some overwhelming need to "win"?

Let me know.  You can "win" all the time if you want.
Time for bed said Zebedee...

Offline Omni

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2017, 10:06:30 pm »
It's funny how you need to do that.  To deliberately misinterpret what people say.  Is it some overwhelming need to "win"?

Let me know.  You can "win" all the time if you want.

I don't need to "win", just backup my points to make my argument.

Offline bcsapper

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2017, 10:09:04 pm »
I don't need to "win", just backup my points to make my argument.

You don't backup points.  You misinterpret.  You say it's not deliberate though, so fair enough
Time for bed said Zebedee...

Offline Omni

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2017, 10:11:27 pm »
You don't backup points.  You misinterpret.  You say it's not deliberate though, so fair enough

Here's a little backup for you to read over.

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2014/air-pollution/en/

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Climate Change - Marxism will Save Us
« Reply #29 on: November 25, 2017, 10:11:50 pm »
The thing that sways me is the statement that it's the status quo now needs to be defended.

I disagree.  Capitalism has worked spectacularly in creating technology/innovation, efficiency, and overall wealth production etc. The other major Marxist-inspired system (Communism) has failed as equally spectacularly, where it killed many millions due to inefficiencies among other things.  So if you want to propose another replacement system for capitalism, which I'm not against (if it works better than capitalism, since capitalism has some serious drawbacks too) then the burden is on whomever creates this new system to show how it will be better.
"The economy has been relatively strong but Trudeau has chosen to run deficits year after year & has said will continue to do so well into the future.  This means we'll be in a worse & more vulnerable financial position when a recession hits when we HAVE to run deficits again." - Me, Oct. 3, 2019