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Offline Michael Hardner

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China USA Trade War
« on: April 04, 2018, 07:01:49 am »
https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2018/apr/04/china-us-trade-war-tariffs-wpp-markets-eurozone-jobs-business-live

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America is waking up to the news that China and the US have taken another step closer to a trade war that could hurt the global economy badly.

A few hours ago, China announced plans to impose 25% tariffs on a swathe of US goods. The list includes soybeans, cars and aircraft -- three key export areas. Beef, cigars and whiskey are all on the list too.

How does Trump, who bragged about the DOW spikes not see the reality of what he is doing here ?
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Offline wilber

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Re: China USA Trade War
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2018, 08:38:53 am »
Trade wars are good and easy to win. Donald said so himself.
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Offline kimmy

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Re: China USA Trade War
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2018, 09:12:53 am »
I guess he's not proud of the Dow Jones Index anymore.

 -k
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: China USA Trade War
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2018, 09:31:36 am »
This **** is costing me money. At the same time, Trump is absolutely correct in that China has been cheating everyone blind for years. It sells its crap everywhere but it imports almost nothing if it can make it itself. It extorts companies to give up trade secrets and forces them into partnership (read bribes) with government friends. It pillages their computers for research and new developments it can then gift to government owned and operated companies. It ships steel and other goods to third countries, has them relabeled as products of Vietnam or Thailand or South Korea or wherever, and then ships them to the West to get around restrictions and levees because of their illegal dumping.

And it uses the vast profits of all this to enhance, expand and modernize its military.

There is no question, as I understand it, of whether there will be a real war with China, but when it will occur.
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: China USA Trade War
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2018, 10:01:56 am »


Question: how many 'exports' are from American companies in China like Apple ?
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Offline TimG

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Re: China USA Trade War
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2018, 10:26:29 am »
Quote from: wilber on April 04, 2018, 08:38:53 am
Trade wars are good and easy to win. Donald said so himself.
By picking fights with everyone, Trump has ensured the US will lose. It is reminiscent of the German two front war during WW2 that did the Germans in. A smarter man than Trump would have played nice with allies like Europe/Japan and co-ordinated specific attacks against China that China could not retaliate in kind. For example, any patent/ip rights held by companies like Huawai, Alibaba or Lenovo could be suspended until such time as China starts providing recourse for western companies. Another example would to require US partners and technology transfer before any '"added value" Chinese company is allowed to sell in the US.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: China USA Trade War
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2018, 10:31:45 am »
Quote from: TimG on April 04, 2018, 10:26:29 am
By picking fights with everyone, Trump has ensured the US will lose.

Correct. One of the reasons this is roiling the stock markets is because no one has a clue what Trump is doing or if Trump himself has a clue what he's doing. If he'd just gone after China it wouldn't have cost such damage, but he's going after everyone at the same time, and often in bombastic style like threatening to scrap NAFTA. So the real fear is this is going to result in a world wide trade war like the one which helped bring on and extend the great depression. If he had more than half a brain he'd be using NAFTA to threaten the Chinese. Mexican workers make a hell of a lot less than Chinese workers and it might be easier for the US to bring offshore production from China to Mexico, which would not only further slow illegal immigration (NAFTA has already pretty much eliminated Mexican illegal immigration) but would allow for easier US production to be used in concert with Mexican.
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: China USA Trade War
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2018, 11:11:47 am »
Quote from: SirJohn on April 04, 2018, 09:31:36 am
And it uses the vast profits of all this to enhance, expand and modernize its military.

Which military superpower got to where they are by doing thing ethically?

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Offline SirJohn

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Re: China USA Trade War
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2018, 12:00:23 pm »
Quote from: BC_cheque on April 04, 2018, 11:11:47 am
Which military superpower got to where they are by doing thing ethically?

There is no perfection in the world. But China has proven time and again that it will do whatever it wants to do, without regard to treaties, international agreements, international law, or simple humanity. It is an authoritarian dictatorship run by corrupt communist party members and seeking influence through bribery, threats or other coercion, over everyone it deals with. Its human rights record is one of the most appalling in the world and getting worse, not better. As such it is unquestionably our enemy.
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: China USA Trade War
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2018, 12:02:45 pm »
Quote from: SirJohn on April 04, 2018, 12:00:23 pm
There is no perfection in the world. But China has proven time and again that it will do whatever it wants to do, without regard to treaties, international agreements, international law, or simple humanity. It is an authoritarian dictatorship run by corrupt communist party members and seeking influence through bribery, threats or other coercion, over everyone it deals with. Its human rights record is one of the most appalling in the world and getting worse, not better. As such it is unquestionably our enemy.

I know, I'm not defending China, but you think the US or Britain got to where they did by treating the world very nicely? 

I think it's a bit of ethnocentrism going on with the way people think China is so evil for wanting what Europeans have been doing for a long time.
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: China USA Trade War
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2018, 12:13:04 pm »
I also would like to know the answer to my question.

http://www.scmp.com/tech/enterprises/article/2131811/apples-china-sales-grow-second-straight-quarter-strong-iphone

Apparently Apple China has $18B in revenue alone....
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: China USA Trade War
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2018, 12:21:20 pm »
Quote from: BC_cheque on April 04, 2018, 12:02:45 pm
I know, I'm not defending China, but you think the US or Britain got to where they did by treating the world very nicely? 

No, I do not think they got the way they are for treating people nicely. But the era of colonialism and taking by force was supposed to be over. Nor does China need to do any of that, really. But it's an authoritarian regime with pretty harsh and determined views on what it should be able to get away with which are out of place with the 21st century.

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I think it's a bit of ethnocentrism going on with the way people think China is so evil for wanting what Europeans have been doing for a long time.

The Europeans HAVEN'T been doing that for a long time actually. They used to. And when they did do it they didn't have nuclear weapons to play with. They also didn't murder people to harvest their organs, and it's been quite some time since they murdered political prisoners and minor criminals as readily as China does or clamped whole families into prison camps because they didn't like their religious beliefs.
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: China USA Trade War
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2018, 12:34:10 pm »
Quote from: SirJohn on April 04, 2018, 12:21:20 pm
No, I do not think they got the way they are for treating people nicely. But the era of colonialism and taking by force was supposed to be over. Nor does China need to do any of that, really. But it's an authoritarian regime with pretty harsh and determined views on what it should be able to get away with which are out of place with the 21st century.

The Europeans HAVEN'T been doing that for a long time actually. They used to. And when they did do it they didn't have nuclear weapons to play with. They also didn't murder people to harvest their organs, and it's been quite some time since they murdered political prisoners and minor criminals as readily as China does or clamped whole families into prison camps because they didn't like their religious beliefs.

The US is post-colonial superpower and they haven't played nice to get to where they are.  They may not be authoritarian in the past but Trump is definitely bringing that side out in them.  As for organ-harvesting, it wasn't too long ago America conducted medical experiments on blacks and deprived them of civil rights.

Again, I'm not defending China, they're the **** du jour, but let's not whitewash the assholery every other superpower has done to get to where they are/were.

China is not all that different for seeking power and doing what it takes to get there. 
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Offline wilber

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Re: China USA Trade War
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2018, 12:42:47 pm »
Yet we owe our country to the assholery of the British and French.
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: China USA Trade War
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2018, 12:50:23 pm »
Quote from: wilber on April 04, 2018, 12:42:47 pm
Yet we owe our country to the assholery of the British and French.

A First Nation Canadian would disagree.

Obviously I’d rather have he US remain on top since we’re allied with them, I just don’t agree with vilifying China for what many others before them have done.
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