Author Topic: Are nation-states necessary anymore?  (Read 398 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline TimG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #60 on: May 30, 2018, 01:14:11 am »
We have done such things many many many times and it sure as hell wasn't all a hundred years ago. And you have benefited from them. Assuming you put gas in your car.
"We" most certainly did not. As for you reference to to gas: countries that exported oil do so for their own benefit because they want the stuff that they can buy with the procceeds. Furthermore all the gas in my car comes from Alberta or Alaska.

Offline Omni

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8466
Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #61 on: May 30, 2018, 01:17:38 am »
"We" most certainly did not. As for you reference to to gas: countries that exported oil do so for their own benefit because they want the stuff that they can buy with the procceeds. Furthermore all the gas in my car comes from Alberta or Alaska.

Mayby you didn't because you haven't left Mama's basement, but I spent a number of years in Africa and so I know better.
Dumb Dumb x 1 View List

Offline wilber

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6509
Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #62 on: May 30, 2018, 09:26:15 am »
A pipe dream. Any world government would become dominated by factions that would likely be self serving. Hell, this country can’t even build a pipeline between two provinces anymore. Look at Brexit, the present situation in the US and the cracks forming in the EU because of granting membership to countries that really shouldn’t be in it or part of a monetary union. Ya sure, world government.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Omni

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8466
Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #63 on: May 30, 2018, 11:57:26 am »
A pipe dream. Any world government would become dominated by factions that would likely be self serving. Hell, this country can’t even build a pipeline between two provinces anymore. Look at Brexit, the present situation in the US and the cracks forming in the EU because of granting membership to countries that really shouldn’t be in it or part of a monetary union. Ya sure, world government.

Well we just saw this am how a strong government can solve the problem you mentioned, just buy the pipeline and the project to twin it. There seems to be no doubt that the potential return for the taxpayer is  significant. The idea of world government has been around for centuries all the way back to the Bronze Age of Egyptian Kings and the Han dynasty in China. Of course nationalism is a strong force against the idea. And if you don't think that is often self serving to a fault I will leave a quote from someone who was also a proponent of world government even before he had to suffer at the hands of nationalism. You may have heard of him.

”As a citizen of Germany, I saw how excessive nationalism can spread like a disease, bringing tragedy to millions,”  he wrote in 1947.

Albert Einstein.

Offline wilber

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6509
Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #64 on: May 30, 2018, 12:03:28 pm »
Well we just saw this am how a strong government can solve the problem you mentioned, just buy the pipeline and the project to twin it. There seems to be no doubt that the potential return for the taxpayer is  significant. The idea of world government has been around for centuries all the way back to the Bronze Age of Egyptian Kings and the Han dynasty in China. Of course nationalism is a strong force against the idea. And if you don't think that is often self serving to a fault I will leave a quote from someone who was also a proponent of world government even before he had to suffer at the hands of nationalism. You may have heard of him.

”As a citizen of Germany, I saw how excessive nationalism can spread like a disease, bringing tragedy to millions,”  he wrote in 1947.

Albert Einstein.

All the ideas of world government have come from those who see themselves as governing it, including Einstein's reference.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC
Winner Winner x 1 View List

Offline Omni

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8466
Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #65 on: May 30, 2018, 12:14:14 pm »
All the ideas of world government have come from those who see themselves as governing it, including Einstein's reference.

Certainly nothing that will ever occur in our time but I still find it an interesting concept. For one thing just think of what could be done with all that money we now spend either preparing for or recovering from wars. Syrians for instance would likely prefer to stay home rather than jumping into flimsy boats to escape the bombs from the Russians and their own government.

Offline wilber

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6509
Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #66 on: May 30, 2018, 12:39:03 pm »
Certainly nothing that will ever occur in our time but I still find it an interesting concept. For one thing just think of what could be done with all that money we now spend either preparing for or recovering from wars. Syrians for instance would likely prefer to stay home rather than jumping into flimsy boats to escape the bombs from the Russians and their own government.


I don't believe the whole world will have some kumbaya moment and live happily ever after. You will still have to police a world full of conflicting societies, religions and regional ambitions, many of which are prepared to use violence to advance their interests. They won't go away just because there is a central authority which seeks to impose its will on them.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Omni

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8466
Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #67 on: May 30, 2018, 01:27:34 pm »

I don't believe the whole world will have some kumbaya moment and live happily ever after. You will still have to police a world full of conflicting societies, religions and regional ambitions, many of which are prepared to use violence to advance their interests. They won't go away just because there is a central authority which seeks to impose its will on them.

I don't think anybody realistically imagines a kumbaya moment where all the conflicts simply go away. But those conflicts where born under the current system and continue under it. I would imagine a proper central authority would need to be well represented including intelligent people from a wide variety of regions who understand the basis for those conflicts and can therefore proffer ideas as to how to resolve them, other than by firing up some Mig's.  An example that comes to mind is we now have Trump prattling on about spending billions to build his friggin' wall to keep Mexicans out. Many of those Mexicans are jumping the border because they can't grow crops anymore due to the growing effects of global warming. Now I don't think we can pin the blame on that global warming solely on Mexico, so building a wall to keep them from trying to escape the effects of it seems to me to be a little unfair and another bad example of nationalism.


Offline SirJohn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5801
Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #69 on: September 08, 2018, 02:53:41 pm »
The Chinese are basically buying Africa. They want to assure the resources go to their industries and economy, and they're not hesitant about bribing local presidents and potentates to ensure they get good prices either.

Meanwhile, western countries have laws now in place to charge any of their corporations that are caught offering bribes abroad. That's very moral of them, but it's not going to do anything good in a competition for resources.

"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline ?Impact

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2941
Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #70 on: September 08, 2018, 03:00:50 pm »
The Chinese are basically buying Africa. They want to assure the resources go to their industries and economy, and they're not hesitant about bribing local presidents and potentates to ensure they get good prices either.

Meanwhile, western countries have laws now in place to charge any of their corporations that are caught offering bribes abroad. That's very moral of them, but it's not going to do anything good in a competition for resources.

What are you suggesting?

Offline SirJohn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5801
Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #71 on: September 08, 2018, 03:07:24 pm »
What are you suggesting?

I wasn't making a suggestion. I was commenting on the likely results of current world policies. The Chinese are going to grab up Africa and its resources, and the West will take what's left, if anything, at higher prices.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline ?Impact

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2941
Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #72 on: September 08, 2018, 03:09:48 pm »
I wasn't making a suggestion. I was commenting on the likely results of current world policies. The Chinese are going to grab up Africa and its resources, and the West will take what's left, if anything, at higher prices.

The west will take? So you are suggesting that African resources are not there for Africans. They are just something to be divided up between China and the west?
Like Like x 1 View List

Offline Omni

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8466
Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #73 on: September 08, 2018, 03:47:12 pm »
I wasn't making a suggestion. I was commenting on the likely results of current world policies. The Chinese are going to grab up Africa and its resources, and the West will take what's left, if anything, at higher prices.

My boy, the west have been grabbing up African resources for decades.
Agree Agree x 1 View List

Offline SirJohn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5801
Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #74 on: September 08, 2018, 06:49:53 pm »
The west will take? So you are suggesting that African resources are not there for Africans. They are just something to be divided up between China and the west?

Yeah. Pretty much. Welcome to planet Earth.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum