Author Topic: Are nation-states necessary anymore?  (Read 767 times)

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Offline TimG

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2018, 07:17:14 pm »
It's dispersed. This isn't about replacing national governments with a one-world government.
So who has the authority to collect the taxes and fund social programs? Local governments? If so you are not proposing change other than breaking up some larger countries which generally not in the advantage of the citizens of those countries because they would lose negotiating leverage on the global scale. If the central government has that authority then you are talking about the 'one world government'.

You haven't understood the system I'm describing yet to make that criticism.
Then explain the proposal by enumerating the benefits. What does a person living in BC have to gain from such a system?
« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 07:19:25 pm by TimG »

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2018, 07:19:26 pm »
So here's the nuts and bolts of it. In the early 20th century there was a violent reaction to industrialism (which was brutal and oppressive until it was reformed). This led to reforms and labour action. Socialism was widespread in Europe in the early 20th century.

What I'm describing here is capital's reaction to this state of affairs. They began operating outside of borders, beyond the confines of nation-states that were increasingly controlled by those who sought to bring capital under a leash of social welfare. We now exist in a world where these corporate interests operate outside (and within) the sphere of control from nation states. This was a process that accelerated through the 20th century.

What I can see happening now is that we are at a point technologically where the other half of society can now transcend borders with global communication. People don't vote in local elections because national politics is small-scale. National politicians have little authority in the global order. It is the global economic order that shapes people's lives, where we live, what we do, how we interact, how much resources we have to our name, etc. (See for example how less employment here is devoted to industrial production; we are now a society that produces knowledge, communication, and ideas).

So in order to bring the system back under the people's control, we need to begin thinking beyond the nation state. We need people and labour to be able to transcend borders as well to meet capital on the same playing field. However, the state apparatuses inhibit our ability to meet it head on. We need rise above them to bring the focus back towards human welfare and not bald and insatiable accumulation.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2018, 07:19:54 pm »
This isn't about the presence of a new global sovereign. It's about destroying states altogether.

That's what The Internationale was about... still too pessimistic.

Offline TimG

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2018, 07:24:39 pm »
So in order to bring the system back under the people's control
Control is about who collects the taxes and decides where they are spent. You have still not explained where that power resides in your proposal.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2018, 07:27:14 pm »
Control is about who collects the taxes and decides where they are spent
That's your definition because you can't see past your nose.

Offline TimG

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2018, 07:32:23 pm »
That's your definition because you can't see past your nose.
My definition is one anyone with a brain understands. Why do you think Quebec pays so much to collect its own income taxes? In any case, it should be a simple question to answer: who collects the taxes and decides where the money is spent? Can you provide a sensible response or are insults all you got?

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2018, 07:33:33 pm »
What I'm arguing here is that the anti-globalists who show up at summits to protest can't see the forest for the trees. They don't realize that capital had transcended the battlefield to another plane and labour is now on the cusp of joining it in that supranational arena. They should welcome the new socio-political-economic order of the world with open arms because it finally means a global battle for the liberation of the masses.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2018, 07:33:58 pm »
My definition is one anyone with a brain understands.
Hey, **** you too, buddy.

Offline TimG

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2018, 07:43:49 pm »
Hey, **** you too, buddy.
You started it. But seriously - why can't you answer a simple practical question about your proposal? Generic rants about the evils of global capital and how it is horrible that nations like Canada don't want to be flooded by millions of unskilled workers does not provide a compelling vision for change.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2018, 07:49:45 pm »
Our democracy is a product of the renaissance philosophers.  It's so out of date.   We could do a lot better with digital architecture but there would be a price of freedom IMO.

You think enlightenment thinking of rule of law, individual equality under law, democratic representation in government, due process etc is out of date?  The vast majority of countries in the world don't even have these yet. 
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2018, 07:53:12 pm »
1) You think enlightenment thinking of rule of law, individual equality under law, democratic representation in government, due process etc is out of date? 
2) The vast majority of countries in the world don't even have these yet.
1) Yes... we need to refresh it.
2) Ok.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2018, 07:58:37 pm »
I can see things moving slowly in the direction of a world democracy - slowly being the operative word.  I can see certain countries like the United States having a lot of trouble giving up jurisdiction though.  It will be decades before may countries could join though.  You'd be looking at something containing the EU, Canada, maybe places like Japan, Australia, New Zealand (or what were those places).

True global representative democracy means terribly corrupt countries like China and India would dominate global government, and also consider the vast majority of the global population live in undemocratic countries with terrible human rights.  No thanks.

In an ever-globalizing world, nation-states may be more important than ever, because it gives more local power to control global forces, and more local voices and self-determination to minority populations.  Giving up sovereignty to global forces sounds like a dystopian nightmare.  We need great reasons to undermine the Westphalian system.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline Omni

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2018, 08:01:17 pm »
You started it. But seriously - why can't you answer a simple practical question about your proposal? Generic rants about the evils of global capital and how it is horrible that nations like Canada don't want to be flooded by millions of unskilled workers does not provide a compelling vision for change.

Actually current immigrants to Canada who are selected under the heading "economic" (the majority ~60%) tend to be skilled/educated equal to or better than Canadians. Some others will need a kick start but again the stats show the majority of those seek work and stay with it once they get it. And of course there are those who are simply running for their lives from war zones. I don't think anybody who supports the concept of an integrated world government suggest simply opening all the doors next Friday. It would be a slow process. But maybe we need to look at how companies such as big oil go to such places as Africa, suck all the oil out of the ground and walk away with sacks of money while the locals continue to suffer.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2018, 08:04:12 pm »
True global representative democracy means terribly corrupt countries like China and India would dominate global government, and also consider the vast majority of the global population live in undemocratic countries with terrible human rights.  No thanks.

In an ever-globalizing world, nation-states may be more important than ever, because it gives more local power to control global forces, and more local voices and self-determination to minority populations.  Giving up sovereignty to global forces sounds like a dystopian nightmare.  We need great reasons to undermine the Westphalian system.

And what leads you to your idea that China and India would dominate?

Offline TimG

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2018, 08:10:12 pm »
Actually current immigrants to Canada who are selected under the heading "economic" (the majority ~60%) tend to be skilled/educated equal to or better than Canadians.
You do love beating up strawmen! In this thread you seem to have missed the part in cyber's argument that he wants to get rid of the ability of nations to 'select' immigrants so my comment has nothing to do with how the current system works.  Thanks for playing. Good luck next time.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 08:21:53 pm by TimG »