Author Topic: Are nation-states necessary anymore?  (Read 398 times)

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Offline Omni

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #45 on: May 28, 2018, 08:30:19 pm »
You do love beating up strawmen! In this thread you seem to have missed the part in cyber's argument that he wants to get rid of the ability of nations to 'select' immigrants so my comment has nothing to do with how the current system works.  Thanks for playing. Good luck next time.

It's usually pretty easy to beat up your strawmen. And no I didn't miss Cybers comment, I would suggest that comment refers to long term while I was looking at how we get there.

Offline JMT

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #46 on: May 28, 2018, 08:51:27 pm »
True global representative democracy means terribly corrupt countries like China and India would dominate global government, and also consider the vast majority of the global population live in undemocratic countries with terrible human rights.  No thanks.

Good thing I excluded those countries (at this point).

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #47 on: May 28, 2018, 11:12:49 pm »
And what leads you to your idea that China and India would dominate?

China and India have about 1.4 billion people each, not even counting their diaspora.  The next closest in population is the USA at 320 million.  If you're doing rep by pop, they win.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline Omni

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #48 on: May 28, 2018, 11:24:35 pm »
China and India have about 1.4 billion people each, not even counting their diaspora.  The next closest in population is the USA at 320 million.  If you're doing rep by pop, they win.

I don't see a world government being the old nonsense of rp by pop. We would need to advance to a system where we could have what we might call rep by need and strive to level the playing field a little better than it is just now.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #49 on: May 29, 2018, 02:38:26 pm »
Actually current immigrants to Canada who are selected under the heading "economic" (the majority ~60%)

A minority (15%)

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And of course there are those who are simply running for their lives from war zones.

Like Haiti, Nigeria, Dominican Republic? Even the ones we got from Syria weren't running for their lives. They were safely in Turkey.

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I don't think anybody who supports the concept of an integrated world government suggest simply opening all the doors next Friday. It would be a slow process.

A goddam slow process. A quarter of the world's population is Muslim, as one example, and in every single case I'm aware of where Muslims were given the option to vote in a fundamentalist Islamic government which would implement Sharia laws they did so with great enthusiasm.

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But maybe we need to look at how companies such as big oil go to such places as Africa, suck all the oil out of the ground and walk away with sacks of money while the locals continue to suffer.

Maybe that's called independent nations making their own decisions. If they want someone to look after them they could seek to become someone's colony.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #50 on: May 29, 2018, 04:00:46 pm »
A minority (15%)

Like Haiti, Nigeria, Dominican Republic? Even the ones we got from Syria weren't running for their lives. They were safely in Turkey.

A goddam slow process. A quarter of the world's population is Muslim, as one example, and in every single case I'm aware of where Muslims were given the option to vote in a fundamentalist Islamic government which would implement Sharia laws they did so with great enthusiasm.

Maybe that's called independent nations making their own decisions. If they want someone to look after them they could seek to become someone's colony.

I'll take my info from the people who actually have the facts and run the immigration system in the country, not your paranoia generated ideas.

 https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/annual-report-parliament-immigration-2017.html

And you don't understand that independent nations, many in Africa have been raped by western company's who came along and stripped out the natural resources and then buggered off? You must live in a very cloistered world.

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #51 on: May 29, 2018, 05:31:11 pm »
I don't see a world government being the old nonsense of rp by pop. We would need to advance to a system where we could have what we might call rep by need and strive to level the playing field a little better than it is just now.

Why is rep by pop nonsense, in general?  Globally it would be disaster.  If it's rep by need then this new government would be controlled by primarily by African countries.  If it's one country = 1 vote like the UN general assembly then again you have third world countries run by corrupt dictators getting the agenda.  I would never want any of Canada's sovereign policies decided by those scumbags.

I do believe that developing countries need at least a level playing field, in terms of trade policy at the very least. International issues can be solved internationally through reformed agencies like UN & WTO.  Local issues should be determined locally by the people, not foreigners or a large global centralized bureaucracy.  That's the whole point of the Westphalian sovereignty system.  That's why the UK is leaving the EU.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #52 on: May 29, 2018, 05:37:52 pm »
Local issues should be determined locally by the people, not foreigners or a large global centralized bureaucracy.

I agree, but the problem becomes what is a local issue. We have seen many issues become global issues because of their effect on the global environment. Additionally the big contentious issue is human rights.

Offline TimG

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #53 on: May 29, 2018, 06:02:19 pm »
I agree, but the problem becomes what is a local issue. We have seen many issues become global issues because of their effect on the global environment. Additionally the big contentious issue is human rights.
Any sort of world government is colonialism by another name. The details of the structure would only affect who is colonized and who are the colonizers. The current system is far from perfect but it is really the only option on the table.

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #54 on: May 29, 2018, 06:08:58 pm »
What I'm describing here is capital's reaction to this state of affairs. They began operating outside of borders, beyond the confines of nation-states that were increasingly controlled by those who sought to bring capital under a leash of social welfare. We now exist in a world where these corporate interests operate outside (and within) the sphere of control from nation states.

That's not quite true.  Capital still operates within the borders of nation-states, but they can also operate within other nation-states depending on the laws of the given nation-states.  Bank accounts, stock markets, company headquarters etc. all have a physical location within a nation-state, even if it's on a computer server in some bank in whatever country.

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People don't vote in local elections because national politics is small-scale. National politicians have little authority in the global order. It is the global economic order that shapes people's lives, where we live, what we do, how we interact, how much resources we have to our name, etc.

The global order has influence for sure but nation-states have input to varying degrees on that order.  And still a huge amount of policies that affect people's lives comes from national and more local elections  Many people don't vote because they don't care about politics whatsoever.

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So in order to bring the system back under the people's control, we need to begin thinking beyond the nation state. We need people and labour to be able to transcend borders as well to meet capital on the same playing field.

The good thing about borders is that it keeps bad people out.  It can also keep bad money out, like the AECON deal that was nixed.  I don't want a lot of criminal and corrupt people from developing countries anywhere near my community, and I like having the power to bring the well-behaved & educated hardworking people from developing countries into my community.  With no borders, it still means Canadian jobs will be sent to China and other poorer countries because it saves money & makes goods cheaper for us to buy.  If no borders, it means I'm competing for a job with anyone worldwide, which doesn't help me much.

If you had a specific proposal for how this new system of yours would work it would be easier to answer.  As of now, borders mean sovereignty, and laws are determined locally and nationally.  Neoliberal movement of labour sounds nuts, local cultures could be overrun and nobody could stop it, and that would cause violence.  I'd rather there be more local and national economic controls on the flow of money and corporations within the current state system, and better international organizations to prevent war.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline Omni

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #55 on: May 29, 2018, 08:36:43 pm »
Any sort of world government is colonialism by another name. The details of the structure would only affect who is colonized and who are the colonizers. The current system is far from perfect but it is really the only option on the table.

Bullshit! If you look up the meaning of the word colonialism you would find we have been practicing it for decades. How many times have we gone into a poorer country, stripped out the natural resources and said syanora? World government,  if managed properly could reweave that and give people a fairer shake. 

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #56 on: May 29, 2018, 09:30:38 pm »
Bullshit! If you look up the meaning of the word colonialism you would find we have been practicing it for decades. How many times have we gone into a poorer country, stripped out the natural resources and said syanora? World government,  if managed properly could reweave that and give people a fairer shake.

You have to spell out how though.  Otherwise this is all just wishful thinking with no actual plan or structure or political system spelled out whatsoever.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline Omni

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #57 on: May 29, 2018, 10:32:16 pm »
You have to spell out how though.  Otherwise this is all just wishful thinking with no actual plan or structure or political system spelled out whatsoever.

I haven't spent enough time on the subject to be able to spell out exactly how. I do however think and have for some time that we would be better off if we achieved it. One snag I expect would be the fact that initially the haves having to share with the have nots would not go over well. Greed being what it is.

Offline TimG

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #58 on: May 30, 2018, 12:20:58 am »
Bullshit! If you look up the meaning of the word colonialism you would find we have been practicing it for decades. How many times have we gone into a poorer country, stripped out the natural resources and said syanora? World government,  if managed properly could reweave that and give people a fairer shake.
"We" have done no such thing. Pretending to be responsible for things you had nothing to do with may be something you like to do but does not mean it is true. That said, pushing your values on countries and people who want nothing to do with them is as bad as any of the injustices that were committed by Europeans 100+ years ago yet you seem to think that is a great idea. Whether you like it or not large majorities in many countries don't think much of western concepts of human rights or democracy. The only real option for those of us that do value them is a state with well defined and protected borders where we create the society that we like and let the rest of world look after itself.

Offline Omni

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #59 on: May 30, 2018, 01:03:55 am »
"We" have done no such thing. Pretending to be responsible for things you had nothing to do with may be something you like to do but does not mean it is true. That said, pushing your values on countries and people who want nothing to do with them is as bad as any of the injustices that were committed by Europeans 100+ years ago yet you seem to think that is a great idea. Whether you like it or not large majorities in many countries don't think much of western concepts of human rights or democracy. The only real option for those of us that do value them is a state with well defined and protected borders where we create the society that we like and let the rest of world look after itself.

We have done such things many many many times and it sure as hell wasn't all a hundred years ago. And you have benefited from them. Assuming you put gas in your car.

https://www.cnn.com/2016/04/18/africa/looting-machine-tom-burgis-africa/index.html
« Last Edit: May 30, 2018, 01:14:55 am by Omni »