Author Topic: Are nation-states necessary anymore?  (Read 398 times)

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Offline cybercoma

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Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« on: May 28, 2018, 12:48:48 pm »
With the expansion of technology that ties geographically diverse people together and with the global economic order that sees corporate enterprises spanning numerous jurisdictions, has the nation-state become unnecessary? Trade agreements, migrants, environmental plans, world health--the challenges we face today are on a global scale and require a supranational global order to organized, investigate, and act upon strategies for human welfare. It seems that the idea of nation-states, at one time with imperialist ambitions, exercising their power beyond their borders has given way to a new global order with no centralized power and no boundaries. In this political economy, do nation states serve any? Could we do without them? Could they, in fact, be problematic, in the sense that they insulate people from efficient and effective socio-political action by narrowing our focus too much?

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Offline ?Impact

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2018, 12:52:46 pm »
I think my friend Alex Jones has a rant or two thousand on this one.

Offline MH

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2018, 12:57:04 pm »
With the expansion of technology that ties geographically diverse people together and with the global economic order that sees corporate enterprises spanning numerous jurisdictions, has the nation-state become unnecessary?

In this political economy, do nation states serve any? Could we do without them? Could they, in fact, be problematic, in the sense that they insulate people from efficient and effective socio-political action by narrowing our focus too much?

Our democracy is a product of the renaissance philosophers.  It's so out of date.   We could do a lot better with digital architecture but there would be a price of freedom IMO.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2018, 01:24:40 pm »
Our democracy is a product of the renaissance philosophers.  It's so out of date.   We could do a lot better with digital architecture but there would be a price of freedom IMO.
Democracy is representative. The supra-national juridical structures are also representative. Nation-states in this order are nothing more than our MPs on a global scale.

Offline TimG

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2018, 01:42:34 pm »
1) A large number of countries are not democracies and are not likely to become democracies anytime soon. This makes a universally elected body a pipe dream;

2) People living in large democracies already struggle with internal conflicts between the existing jurisdictions (Scotland, Catalan, Quebec, et, al.). I can't imagine these groups would be happy to cede more power to a central authority.

3) The differentials in population and economic size would leave a lot of minority groups feeling powerless. I don't see this as a good or desirable thing.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2018, 01:58:56 pm »
I think my friend Alex Jones has a rant or two thousand on this one.

I can imagine how scary he would be on that topic. I'll look him up sometime when I feel like screaming at the TV. I was lucky enough to have traveled the planet a fair bit and it led me to the conclusion that inevitably we will have to level the playing field and arrive at a one world government. A rather large concept I agree but why the hell should we continue to **** away massive amounts of resources building "fences" and even fighting massive wars so that some of us can drive Cadillac's while others ride donkeys. I know I won't see it in my time but I'll keep an optimistic eye from wherever is next. 

Offline MH

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2018, 02:26:43 pm »
Democracy is representative. The supra-national juridical structures are also representative. Nation-states in this order are nothing more than our MPs on a global scale.

Sure.  But representatives are seeing their roles deprecated everywhere, thanks to automation.   You seem to be going against your initial question. 

There are new ways coming soon, and for the better, once we get through this dark period.

Offline JMT

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2018, 02:59:46 pm »
I can see things moving slowly in the direction of a world democracy - slowly being the operative word.  I can see certain countries like the United States having a lot of trouble giving up jurisdiction though.  It will be decades before may countries could join though.  You'd be looking at something containing the EU, Canada, maybe places like Japan, Australia, New Zealand (or what were those places).

Offline TimG

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2018, 03:02:41 pm »
There are new ways coming soon, and for the better, once we get through this dark period.
The 'darkness' as it currently exists is driven by hyper-nationalist non-democratic states (China and Russia) and failed states (Syria, Afghanistan, Libya, etc.). There is no plausible change that would address these problems.

Offline TimG

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2018, 03:04:38 pm »
You'd be looking at something containing the EU, Canada, maybe places like Japan, Australia, New Zealand (or what were those places).
Not a chance. None of the populations of these countries have any interest in ceding power to a supranational body. More importantly, it is completely irrational to suggest they do (loss of power with no benefits).

Offline Omni

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2018, 03:19:05 pm »
I can see things moving slowly in the direction of a world democracy - slowly being the operative word.  I can see certain countries like the United States having a lot of trouble giving up jurisdiction though.  It will be decades before may countries could join though.  You'd be looking at something containing the EU, Canada, maybe places like Japan, Australia, New Zealand (or what were those places).

I would venture a guess that discussions of such ideas take place from time to time behind closed doors at the UN.

Offline MH

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2018, 03:25:17 pm »
The 'darkness' as it currently exists is driven by hyper-nationalist non-democratic states (China and Russia) and failed states (Syria, Afghanistan, Libya, etc.). There is no plausible change that would address these problems.

Two response:

1 - No, the darkness is not our challenges but how our representatives act destructively to get elected rather than rally a public to deal with challenges
2 - Rogue states are on the downswing don't you know ?

Offline TimG

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2018, 03:36:55 pm »
1 - No, the darkness is not our challenges but how our representatives act destructively to get elected rather than rally a public to deal with challenges
2 - Rogue states are on the downswing don't you know ?
After years of increases, the number of states with democracies and rule of law is declining. This trend may be temporary, level off or reverse. The bottom line is the number of people living in states where they have control over their government is falling. I see that as the greatest "darkness".

Our politicians are merely a reflection of society and you cannot separate the two. If elected politicians act destructively that is because voters reward those that do. Unless you have a solution for mass brainwashing then no technical change is going to fix this issue.


 

Offline MH

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2018, 03:44:54 pm »
After years of increases, the number of states with democracies and rule of law is declining. This trend may be temporary, level off or reverse. The bottom line is the number of people living in states where they have control over their government is falling. I see that as the greatest "darkness".

You can't expect these things to follow a strictly straight line.  It's far better than the cold war and than most of history.

Quote
Our politicians are merely a reflection of society and you cannot separate the two. If elected politicians act destructively that is because voters reward those that do. Unless you have a solution for mass brainwashing then no technical change is going to fix this issue.

I don't know what the answer is but this contentious period is an anomaly and is transitional, even if we are headed to civil war.

Offline TimG

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Re: Are nation-states necessary anymore?
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2018, 03:55:50 pm »
You can't expect these things to follow a strictly straight line.  It's far better than the cold war and than most of history.
You are the one who started talking about a "darkness". I simply defined what I see as the biggest global concern.

I don't know what the answer is but this contentious period is an anomaly and is transitional, even if we are headed to civil war.
From what I have read it is no more contentious than in the past. The main difference is the huge volume of discourse which technology has enabled which makes the contention seem greater (i.e. our knowledge of the past is limited by what was written in newspapers etc.).