Author Topic: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t  (Read 606 times)

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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2021, 02:00:37 pm »
Not that it's a solution to this debate, but does anyone really believe any two-state solution would stop any of this?

The fringes of both sides are hell-bent on the destruction of the other. The leadership there needs to change.

The only solution at this stage is the one-state solution, for Israel to become a multi-ethnic, democratic nation with equal rights for all.

One other note: I don't think it's fair to characterize the Israeli belief in their supremacy over the Palestinian people as a fringe one, but one that is baked in.
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Offline MH

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Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2021, 02:04:17 pm »
The only solution at this stage is the one-state solution, for Israel to become a multi-ethnic, democratic nation with equal rights for all.

One other note: I don't think it's fair to characterize the Israeli belief in their supremacy over the Palestinian people as a fringe one, but one that is baked in.

Well, you are basically saying Israel will go away and Palestinians and Jews will unite.  Noble goal but add a few hundred years to the timeline for this one.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2021, 02:44:11 pm »
Well, you are basically saying Israel will go away and Palestinians and Jews will unite.  Noble goal but add a few hundred years to the timeline for this one.

Where's Israel going in my scenario?

The two state solution is dead if it ever was even alive to begin with. The de facto annexation of the West Bank was the final nail in the coffin.


Offline MH

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Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2021, 03:08:11 pm »
1. Where's Israel going in my scenario?

2. The two state solution is dead if it ever was even alive to begin with. The de facto annexation of the West Bank was the final nail in the coffin.
1. It's not really Israel, let's face it.  It's Canada.  (Yes how awful.)

2. It's more realistic than one state though right ?

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2021, 03:19:05 pm »
1. It's not really Israel, let's face it.  It's Canada.  (Yes how awful.)

2. It's more realistic than one state though right ?

1. the Soviet Union ceased to exist. Israel is more akin to apartheid-era South Africa. None of this is really relevant.

2. No. it's completely unrealistic. How do you propose to make a functional nation state out of this?

Offline MH

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Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2021, 03:50:47 pm »
1. the Soviet Union ceased to exist. Israel is more akin to apartheid-era South Africa. None of this is really relevant.

2. No. it's completely unrealistic. How do you propose to make a functional nation state out of this?

1. Hm ? 

2. Well ... one state seems more difficult to me.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2021, 03:53:33 pm »
1. Hm ? 

2. Well ... one state seems more difficult to me.

I think it's easier to create a single democratic state than try and make a viable state out of a scattering of postage stamp sized parcels of land surrounded by hostile neighbours.
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2021, 04:36:18 pm »
I think it's easier to create a single democratic state than try and make a viable state out of a scattering of postage stamp sized parcels of land surrounded by hostile neighbours.

Both sides of the conflict want to wipe each other out, one side often calling for their extermination...   battling over religious nonsense like little hills where mythical figures did things...  and you think they can be put into a democratic country?  LOL

Youíre living in a fantasy world where most people are moderates and itís just a small fringe element on both sides casing troubles.
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2021, 05:27:28 pm »
What's really interesting is seeing how the usual Hasbara bullshit from Israel and its proxies isn't really landing anymore: mass demonstrations in cities across the world, social media tides seem solidly in the pro-Palestine camp. I wonder if the BLM protests have changed the way people look at oppression and settler colonialism outside of our own context.

I'm seeing a lot of Palestinian Lives Matter on twitter as well as references from Jewish Americans to other Jewish Americans about their hypocrisy of having BLM on their profiles without supporting Palestinians.

However, I think equally important is the direction Netanyahu has taken Israel in the last decade and a half.  I know you've mentioned reading Obama's Promised Land so I'm sure you're familiar with it, but the sentiment that seems to be brewing is that the romanticized Israel we all grew up with no longer exists. 

Israel is not defending itself against hostile neighbours, Netanyahu has shifted the country to extreme right wing tribalism and colonialism.  It's difficult for many, as Obama eloquently explains, to reconcile the disparity.


Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2021, 05:32:26 pm »
Well, you are basically saying Israel will go away and Palestinians and Jews will unite.  Noble goal but add a few hundred years to the timeline for this one.

It's the only solution remaining (two-state died a long time ago), but it won't happen unless western countries start to seriously pressure Israel which I don't see happening.

I don't see it happening even in a hundred years tbh.  We are witnessing a great tragedy of ethnic cleansing unfold and nobody will do anything about it because our leaders are scared shitless of Israel.  Just look at John Corbyn and what happens when a politician stands against Israel. 

They have done an incredible job of conflating criticism of Israel with anti-semitism and nothing kills a career better than being called anti-semite.
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2021, 05:37:00 pm »
2. No. it's completely unrealistic. How do you propose to make a functional nation state out of this?

You can't.  Sadly, looking at the demographics on that map is also the reason the one-state solution will never exist either.  There would be equal number of Jews and Muslims in Israel and Israel would never accept it.

They will continue the apartheid and land theft until Palestinians leave on their own accord. 

I agree that the situation is much like South Africa and change will only take place when western nations get tough on Israel.  I don't see that happening any time soon though. 

They've stood by this far, I don't see what Israel could possibly do that's worse.
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Offline Nipples Von Graham

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Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2021, 05:40:47 pm »
I think it's easier to create a single democratic state than try and make a viable state out of a scattering of postage stamp sized parcels of land surrounded by hostile neighbours.

If it were one state then you'd just have the more powerful faction trying to politically dominate the agenda over the less dominant faction, which is exactly what's happening now.  It solves nothing.  They each need their own state to have self-determination.

What is needed is for Netanyahu to eff off with the settlement building and act in good faith.

It becomes complicated because Israel gave Gaza back to the Palestinians about 15 years ago and they've used it to launch the rocket attacks from among schools and hospitals as human shields.  Then because of that Israel blockades or inspects all the goods coming into Gaza looking for weapons, so Gazans cry foul.

So if you give the West bank back to the Arabs and give them statehood well any independent state needs a military to defend itself, so the possibility of more conflict is there.  And there's groups on both sides that won't accept any less than all of the land for themselves and all the people they don't like GTFO.  It's a giant clusterf***.
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2021, 06:14:04 pm »
Itís not like S. Africa though...   black S. Africans never wanted the extermination of the white S. Africans.  The political arm of the Palestinians wants the extermination of Jews.  I donít recall Mandela and his group calling for that.  Never mind the crazy amounts of Holocaust denial by Palestinian groups.

The two are absolutely not analogous. 

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2021, 06:53:31 pm »
Itís not like S. Africa though...   black S. Africans never wanted the extermination of the white S. Africans.  The political arm of the Palestinians wants the extermination of Jews.  I donít recall Mandela and his group calling for that.  Never mind the crazy amounts of Holocaust denial by Palestinian groups.

The two are absolutely not analogous.

And white South Africans didn't have their country handed to them after a holocaust.  They didn't have extremists amongst them that believe there is a Greater South Africa that god has promised them and that they need to evict and ethnically-cleanse the region of black South Africans.

So what?  Things don't have to be 100% similar in order to make comparisons.  There is a dominant group that holds the power and an oppressed group that lives by a different set of standards within the same region.  That's nutshell apartheidism. 

The similarity which is relevant is that the dominant group is not going to just stop on their own accord and goodwill and the only way they will compromise will be through external pressure.

Unlike South Africa, there is an incentive for western nations that stability to the region directly benefits us as well.  The comparison is very sound IMO.

Offline Nipples Von Graham

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Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2021, 12:40:37 am »
Itís not like S. Africa though...   black S. Africans never wanted the extermination of the white S. Africans.  The political arm of the Palestinians wants the extermination of Jews.  I donít recall Mandela and his group calling for that.  Never mind the crazy amounts of Holocaust denial by Palestinian groups.

The two are absolutely not analogous.

This conflict has its own context.  In Israel it's more complicated than "colonialism"  Israelis believe the land is their ancestral land, especially after being targeted for racism and extermination.  it's not the same as whitey invading south Africa looking for riches.

The reality is both the palestinians and Israelis have their own victim narratives and neither is really wrong.
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