Author Topic: An alternative approach to global warming  (Read 375 times)

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Offline Omni

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Re: An alternative approach to global warming
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2018, 10:06:21 pm »
And all of the money that the EU sunk into achieving their 15% reduction in emissions has been rendered moot by the massive increase in emissions from China and the developing world. It is like a drunk claiming to cut back by spilling a bit of beer while ordering even more.

"Massive", no. And a strong commitment to cap and then start to reduce emissions by 2030. Narrow minded people used to think the automobile would never take hold back in Henry Ford's day also.

 The world’s biggest emitter of greenhouse gases, China, has launched the world’s biggest ever mechanism to reduce carbon, in the form of an emissions trading system.

China’s top governmental bodies on Tuesday gave their approval to plans for a carbon trading system that will initially cover the country’s heavily polluting power generation plants, then expand to take in most of the economy.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/dec/19/china-aims-to-drastically-cut-greenhouse-gas-emissions-through-trading-scheme

Offline wilber

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Re: An alternative approach to global warming
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2018, 10:19:56 pm »
Reasons to do nothing are a dime a dozen. Sooner or later CO2 emissions will have to be dealt with. If putting it off until you are dead is a strategy, it is probably a good one but they will still have to be dealt with.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline TimG

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Re: An alternative approach to global warming
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2018, 10:22:37 pm »
And a strong commitment to cap and then start to reduce emissions by 2030.
Emission promises a decade or more from now mean squat. Get back to me when China's emissions actually go down.

Offline TimG

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Re: An alternative approach to global warming
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2018, 10:27:24 pm »
Reasons to do nothing are a dime a dozen. Sooner or later CO2 emissions will have to be dealt with. If putting it off until you are dead is a strategy, it is probably a good one but they will still have to be dealt with.
The said that about over population in the 70s but human nature and increasing wealth seems to fixed the problem on its own. IOW, it is not a given that special action now is necessary or useful. It is quite possible that tech will emerge in the future that will make reducing CO2 emissions extremely cost effective. However, trying to force reductions with the tech available today is an expensive exercise in futility.

Bottom line: show me a way to reduce emissions that is cost effective (<$50 per tonne of CO2) and I will support using it. If the only options are grossly expensive and/or scams that do nothing (emission offset trading) then I will not support it.

Offline Omni

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Re: An alternative approach to global warming
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2018, 10:30:36 pm »
Reasons to do nothing are a dime a dozen. Sooner or later CO2 emissions will have to be dealt with. If putting it off until you are dead is a strategy, it is probably a good one but they will still have to be dealt with.

There were people back in the day who said government forcing auto manufacturers to cut their exhaust emissions would certainly kill the auto industry. Boy were they wrong then and boy does the air smell better now.

Offline Omni

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Re: An alternative approach to global warming
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2018, 10:32:49 pm »
Emission promises a decade or more from now mean squat. Get back to me when China's emissions actually go down.

So tell us why you think they made those promises and why you think they made them without any concern to actually fulfilling them. We'll get teh popcorn.

Offline TimG

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Re: An alternative approach to global warming
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2018, 11:03:51 pm »
There were people back in the day who said government forcing auto manufacturers to cut their exhaust emissions would certainly kill the auto industry. Boy were they wrong then and boy does the air smell better now.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Generally, when the government mandates a technology before it is ready the regulations have to be rolled back or the companies cheat with the bureaucrats looking the other way. The diesel emission scandal involving almost every diesel vehicle maker is a good example of what happens when emission regulations are too strict to make a vehicle economic.

So tell us why you think they made those promises and why you think they made them without any concern to actually fulfilling them. We'll get teh popcorn.
Same reason every politician make promises they have no intention of keeping: to get approval. Why would promises made by a politician 10 years in the future be given credence when we know that most promises made by politicians for the next 4 years are lies?
« Last Edit: May 24, 2018, 11:08:01 pm by TimG »

Offline Omni

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Re: An alternative approach to global warming
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2018, 11:17:32 pm »
Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Generally, when the government mandates a technology before it is ready the regulations have to be rolled back or the companies cheat with the bureaucrats looking the other way. The diesel emission scandal involving almost every diesel vehicle maker is a good example of what happens when emission regulations are too strict to make a vehicle economic.
Same reason every politician make promises they have no intention of keeping: to get approval. Why would promises made by a politician 10 years in the future be given credence when we know that most promises made by politicians for the next 4 years are lies?

I don't know how old you are but if you have been around anywhere near as long as I have you would know that the air smells a whole lot better due to emission standards that were enacted many years ago. And I would venture a guess that China's commitments are based on the reality of the situation rather than on worrying about a 4 year election cycle. If you'd have ever visited China you would understand why. Perhaps go look up the word "communism".
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: An alternative approach to global warming
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2018, 02:29:03 pm »
Adaption. It has allowed humans to survive until today. It will serve us in the future.
Grandiose schemes to "fix" a issue that is really beyond our control are a waste of resources.

Adaption will also cost a massive amount of money.  I'd think the best solution would be one that balances costs. including money and environmental and human costs.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: An alternative approach to global warming
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2018, 02:35:21 pm »
You know, applying our knowledge to problems and coming up with solutions is how we adapt right? Your comment here is like saying, "**** antibiotics. Humans need to adapt to survive." Rejecting interventions only benefits those who profit from nature's destruction. I'm sure they appreciate your support.

That's not true.  But we all profit from nature's destruction because cheap fossil fuels increase our standard of living since it reduces costs on our transportation and virtually everything we buy that needs to be shipped somewhere, usually several times over as different materials and raw resources need to be shipped to several places until a final product reaches our hands.  We can spend those savings on other things, thus increasing everyone's wealth.  This makes the costs of getting off fossil fuels very relevant to everyone, if those fossil fuels remain cheaper than renewables.

Now yes, some companies like energy companies do profit exponentially more than the average consumer.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 02:46:14 pm by Coonlight Graham »
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline Omni

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Re: An alternative approach to global warming
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2018, 02:39:17 pm »
That's not true.  But we all profit from nature's destruction because cheap fossil fuels increase our standard of living since it reduces costs on our transportation and virtually everything we buy that needs to be shipped somewhere, usually several times over as different materials and raw resources need to be shipped to several places until a final product reaches our hands.  We can spend those savings on other things, thus increasing everyone's wealth.

Now yes, some companies like energy companies do profit exponentially more than the average consumer.

And what the hell good is wealth if you can't breath the air or your home is being washed away by rising sea water?

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: An alternative approach to global warming
« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2018, 02:47:21 pm »
And what the hell good is wealth if you can't breath the air or your home is being washed away by rising sea water?

Exactly i agree, which is why a few posts about I said to TimG: "I'd think the best solution would be one that balances costs. including money and environmental and human costs."  It's all about a cost/benefits analysis, and then after that the problem of getting every major country on board to implement it.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline Omni

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Re: An alternative approach to global warming
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2018, 02:55:43 pm »
Exactly i agree, which is why a few posts about I said to TimG: "I'd think the best solution would be one that balances costs. including money and environmental and human costs."  It's all about a cost/benefits analysis, and then after that the problem of getting every major country on board to implement it.

And it seems under the guidance of Donald Trump, one major country that is not on board is the US.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/22/opinion/paris-agreement-climate-china-india.html
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Offline ?Impact

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Re: An alternative approach to global warming
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2018, 02:58:36 pm »
But we all profit from nature's destruction because cheap fossil fuels increase our standard of living since it reduces costs on our transportation and virtually everything we buy that needs to be shipped somewhere, usually several times over as different materials and raw resources need to be shipped to several places until a final product reaches our hands.

I miss Stompin' Tom

Oh, yes we are the people running in the race,
Buying up the bargains in the old marketplace,
Another sale on something, we'll buy it while it's hot
And save a lot of money spending money we don't got.

Offline Omni

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Re: An alternative approach to global warming
« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2018, 03:15:06 pm »
I miss Stompin' Tom

Oh, yes we are the people running in the race,
Buying up the bargains in the old marketplace,
Another sale on something, we'll buy it while it's hot
And save a lot of money spending money we don't got.


Lucky for him he was Canadian and not American, otherwise those softwood lumber tariffs on all that wood he stomped to pieces could have bankrupted him.