Author Topic: An alternative approach to global warming  (Read 375 times)

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Offline Omni

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An alternative approach to global warming
« on: May 24, 2018, 11:43:24 am »
A group of scientists who are convinced that trying to reduce CO2 emissions to stave off global warming will not happen soon enough to be effective enough have come up with an alternative plan. The Geoengineering approach would be instead of reducing CO2 in the atmosphere which traps heat from the sun, you simply sprinkle droplets of sulfuric acid in the atmosphere to block a portion of the suns rays from getting in in the first place. I can wrap my head around how that could be effective, but I must say I'm a little uneasy. I need to learn more about the long term effects before I would vote a yea for that idea. Anyway it is interesting.

      https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/blocking-the-sun-is-no-plan-b-for-global-warming/

"More than 300 watts per square meter of sunshine hits the top of Earth's atmosphere each year. A third is reflected and the sky, sea and land absorb the rest. Much of that warmth tries to escape back to space but only a little over half makes it each year. That proportion is declining as concentrations of gases in the atmosphere, notably carbon dioxide, edges ever upward. The result: global warming.
To a tinkerer's mind there is an obvious solution: block some of that sunlight from coming in. That's the solution known as geoengineering—the large-scale manipulation of the planet’s environment, in this case the sky. As negotiators at the climate talks underway here spar over what to do about adding more CO2 to the air, geoengineering becomes more and more attractive to those with this tinkerer's bent"

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Offline TimG

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Re: An alternative approach to global warming
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2018, 11:53:08 am »
Adaption. It has allowed humans to survive until today. It will serve us in the future.
Grandiose schemes to "fix" a issue that is really beyond our control are a waste of resources.
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Offline cybercoma

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Re: An alternative approach to global warming
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2018, 12:20:17 pm »
Adaption. It has allowed humans to survive until today. It will serve us in the future.
Grandiose schemes to "fix" a issue that is really beyond our control are a waste of resources.
You know, applying our knowledge to problems and coming up with solutions is how we adapt right? Your comment here is like saying, "**** antibiotics. Humans need to adapt to survive." Rejecting interventions only benefits those who profit from nature's destruction. I'm sure they appreciate your support.
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Offline Omni

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Re: An alternative approach to global warming
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2018, 12:40:47 pm »
Adaption. It has allowed humans to survive until today. It will serve us in the future.
Grandiose schemes to "fix" a issue that is really beyond our control are a waste of resources.

Sounds to me like your version of adaptation is to bury your head in the sand. I think a better way is to attempt to correct a problem, especially one we ourselves have created.

Offline wilber

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Re: An alternative approach to global warming
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2018, 01:02:11 pm »
I think both will be necessary. We will have to adapt because we are at a point where change is inevitable. On the other hand, not taking steps to reduce the rate of change will make adapting much more difficult, if not impossible.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC
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Offline Omni

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Re: An alternative approach to global warming
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2018, 01:23:36 pm »
I think both will be necessary. We will have to adapt because we are at a point where change is inevitable. On the other hand, not taking steps to reduce the rate of change will make adapting much more difficult, if not impossible.

I agree both will be required. For instance if I was thinking about buying property in Florida I might not go for current beach front, but rather move inland a ways and as the ice melts and the SL rises I'll let the beach come to me. Another idea I read about with regard to dealing with the huge deficits in arctic sea ice was to place a multitude of small windmills on the remaining ice with a water pump attached that would act like your lawn sprayer whenever the wind blew and cause the ice to thicken. Of course Carnival Cruise Lines "adapted" by sending a ship with a few thousand people aboard through the NW passage. I wonder what the residents of say, Cambridge Bay thought of that.

Offline TimG

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Re: An alternative approach to global warming
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2018, 02:49:34 pm »
I think both will be necessary. We will have to adapt because we are at a point where change is inevitable. On the other hand, not taking steps to reduce the rate of change will make adapting much more difficult, if not impossible.
The trouble is most attempts to "reduce" emissions to date has little impact on the big picture. This means that money spent is money wasted. If we could have a conversation where the only reduction measures that will be considered will be those with a suitably low cost/tonne CO2 then it would be worth discussing. We can't have that conversation so it is really a choice between pissing away money on pointless but highly visible projects or doing nothing on the mitigation.  Doing nothing makes more sense.
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Offline ?Impact

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Re: An alternative approach to global warming
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2018, 05:55:40 pm »
The Geoengineering approach

Poor old lady, she swallowed a fly.
I don't know why she swallowed a fly.
Poor old lady, I think she'll die.

Poor old lady, she swallowed a spider.
It squirmed and wriggled and turned inside her.
She swallowed the spider to catch the fly.
I don't know why she swallowed a fly.
Poor old lady, I think she'll die.

Poor old lady, she swallowed a bird.
How absurd!   She swallowed a bird.
She swallowed the bird to catch the spider,
She swallowed the spider to catch the fly,
I don't know why she swallowed a fly.
Poor old lady, I think she'll die.

Poor old lady, she swallowed a cat.
Thank of that!   She swallowed a cat.
She swallowed the cat to catch the bird.
She swallowed the bird to catch the spider.
She swallowed the spider to catch the fly,
I don't know why she swallowed a fly.
Poor old lady, I think she'll die.

Poor old lady, she swallowed a dog.
She went the whole hog when she swallowed the dog.
She swallowed the dog to catch the cat,
She swallowed the cat to catch the bird,
She swallowed the bird to catch the spider.
She swallowed the spider to catch the fly,
I don't know why she swallowed a fly.
Poor old lady, I think she'll die.

Poor old lady, she swallowed a cow.
I don't know how she swallowed a cow.
She swallowed the cow to catch the dog,
She swallowed the dog to catch the cat,
She swallowed the cat to catch the bird,
She swallowed the bird to catch the spider,
She swallowed the spider to catch the fly,
I don't know why she swallowed a fly.
Poor old lady, I think she'll die.

Poor old lady, she swallowed a horse.
She died, of course.
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: An alternative approach to global warming
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2018, 08:48:26 pm »
Reducing the amount of sunlight that reaches earth sounds like it would have untold and very unpredictable effects on a gazillion plants, animals, weather systems etc.  We're talking about reducing plant food, which would be terrible for CO2-sucking plantlife.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline wilber

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Re: An alternative approach to global warming
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2018, 08:54:07 pm »
The trouble is most attempts to "reduce" emissions to date has little impact on the big picture. This means that money spent is money wasted. If we could have a conversation where the only reduction measures that will be considered will be those with a suitably low cost/tonne CO2 then it would be worth discussing. We can't have that conversation so it is really a choice between pissing away money on pointless but highly visible projects or doing nothing on the mitigation.  Doing nothing makes more sense.

Not really. If drinking too much coke is rotting your teeth, don’t you think cutting down on coke should be part of the solution as well as going to the dentist?
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC
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Offline wilber

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Re: An alternative approach to global warming
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2018, 08:55:29 pm »
Reducing the amount of sunlight that reaches earth sounds like it would have untold and very unpredictable effects on a gazillion plants, animals, weather systems etc.  We're talking about reducing plant food, which would be terrible for CO2-sucking plantlife.

Good point.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Omni

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Re: An alternative approach to global warming
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2018, 09:07:44 pm »
Reducing the amount of sunlight that reaches earth sounds like it would have untold and very unpredictable effects on a gazillion plants, animals, weather systems etc.  We're talking about reducing plant food, which would be terrible for CO2-sucking plantlife.

Well for starters we seem to keep mowing down those CO2 sucking plants to build high rises. And a lot of those plants in Mexico for instance are dyeing because they get too much sun and not near enough rain. From what I read this plan would attempt to generate cloud cover over the oceans, which do absorb a large amount of the suns heat that gets absorbed especially in norther areas where theyr used to be ice. I'm not convinced this is necessarily the best plan, but if your plants were burning up in your greenhouse you might think to put up a few umbrellas.

Offline TimG

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Re: An alternative approach to global warming
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2018, 09:09:02 pm »
Not really. If drinking too much coke is rotting your teeth, don’t you think cutting down on coke should be part of the solution as well as going to the dentist?
If you want to make analogies try a more appropriate one is: if drinking 2 liters coke/day is rotting your teeth cutting would your consumption by 1.9 liters/day make any difference? Now with the coke analogy you can argue cutting out that 100ml can't hurt even if it makes no difference but with CO2 cutting consumption modestly comes with a large cost and if you spend resources on CO2 mitigation those resources are not available for other things like adaption. This means a proper economic analysis requires cost benefit calculation for each measure. If one measure costs $1000 tonne/co2 then it is waste and should not be done. If another measure costs $30 tonne of CO2 then it is definitely worth doing. Unfortunately those analyses are not being done and because there are way too many economic illiterates who are dazzled by fancy projects that cost a lot while doing nothing. This means a lot of resources are being wasted and will not be available to fund the inevitable adaption.

Offline Omni

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Re: An alternative approach to global warming
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2018, 09:17:00 pm »
If you want to make analogies try a more appropriate one is: if drinking 2 liters coke/day is rotting your teeth cutting would your consumption by 1.9 liters/day make any difference? Now with the coke analogy you can argue cutting out that 100ml can't hurt even if it makes no difference but with CO2 cutting consumption modestly comes with a large cost and if you spend resources on CO2 mitigation those resources are not available for other things like adaption. This means a proper economic analysis requires cost benefit calculation for each measure. If one measure costs $1000 tonne/co2 then it is waste and should not be done. If another measure costs $30 tonne of CO2 then it is definitely worth doing. Unfortunately those analyses are not being done and because there are way too many economic illiterates who are dazzled by fancy projects that cost a lot while doing nothing. This means a lot of resources are being wasted and will not be available to fund the inevitable adaption.

Well then you simply have to learn to reduce your coke intake by more that .1 litre don't you. It seems to be working in the EU. Ignoring your addiction to coke won't help your failing teeth.


https://e360.yale.edu/digest/for-the-first-time-renewables-produce-more-electricity-in-the-eu-than-coal
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Offline TimG

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Re: An alternative approach to global warming
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2018, 09:42:23 pm »
Well then you simply have to learn to reduce your coke intake by more that .1 litre don't you. It seems to be working in the EU. Ignoring your addiction to coke won't help your failing teeth.
And all of the money that the EU sunk into achieving their 15% reduction in emissions has been rendered moot by the massive increase in emissions from China and the developing world. It is like a drunk claiming to cut back by spilling a bit of beer while ordering even more.