Author Topic: Abstraction & Generalization Culture  (Read 426 times)

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Offline MH

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Re: Abstraction & Generalization Culture
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2021, 02:47:06 pm »
1. I think humans have a natural and sometimes necessary need to over-simplify the world, because it's very complex.   Humans have difficulty processing this complexity, because it's hard and inconvenient and sometimes they may not even realize the nuance.  Humans want to make conclusions about things, but nuance is hard. 

2. So we need to avoid oversimplifying.  Some people bash the rich, but not all rich are greedy or bad, even if a lot may be.  It's not good to over-simplify groups with inaccurate stereotypes. Humans also have egos, they want to have opinions and make conclusions even when they don't have enough information on a subject to do so properly.

3. So lets be humble and realize our ignorance where it may exist.  If you don't know a lot about a subject your opinions about it are probably inaccurate and you're just talking out of your rump.  I've had relatives who have made racist stereotypes about racial groups but they have never been friends with one, or worked closely with one.  It is really about laziness and/or ignorance.  Let's do our homework before having opinions.

1. Humans seem to actually construct the artifacts of their community along basic lines: OUR tribe, the outsiders, our challenges, the "good" traits, the "bad" traits...

2. Or maybe come up with more clever ways to do so.  Money, and Laws are oversimplifications via system that work.

3. Great advice.  Maybe that's a stereotype we need to promote "the person who talks out their ass".  Maybe expertise needs to be re-established as a valued attribute.

Offline Nipples Von Graham

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Re: Abstraction & Generalization Culture
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2021, 03:04:25 pm »
1. Humans seem to actually construct the artifacts of their community along basic lines: OUR tribe, the outsiders, our challenges, the "good" traits, the "bad" traits...

Where and when is tribalism appropriate?  People are fine when aboriginals defend their land and people from outsiders, defend maintaining their culture.  Doing so if you're white is bad apparently.  It's just victim-oppressor guilt stuff.  An anglo white person has just as much of a culture as a Quebecois or an aboriginal or an immigrant.  This is offensive to people who deny facts based on moralizing.  The British, French, Italians etc have no right to defend the maintenance of their culture?  If the aboriginals want sovereignty that's ok, but for the Quebecois or the UK (Brexit) is bad?  Give me a break.  Self-hating guilt-ridden people are too weak to be logical and should be ignored.

OMG now i'm a racist.

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3. Great advice.  Maybe that's a stereotype we need to promote "the person who talks out their ass".  Maybe expertise needs to be re-established as a valued attribute.

Yes for sure.
They call me Nipples.

Offline MH

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Re: Abstraction & Generalization Culture
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2021, 03:19:26 pm »
1. Where and when is tribalism appropriate? 

2. People are fine when aboriginals defend their land and people from outsiders, defend maintaining their culture.  Doing so if you're white is bad apparently. 

3. It's just victim-oppressor guilt stuff.  An anglo white person has just as much of a culture as a Quebecois or an aboriginal or an immigrant.  This is offensive to people who deny facts based on moralizing.  The British, French, Italians etc have no right to defend the maintenance of their culture?  If the aboriginals want sovereignty that's ok, but for the Quebecois or the UK (Brexit) is bad?  Give me a break.  Self-hating guilt-ridden people are too weak to be logical and should be ignored.

4. OMG now i'm a racist.

 
1. It's not a valid question.  Nobody can rise above tribalism - not even scientists.  Stephen Hawking talks about being personally annoyed at papers challenging his theories.  That said, if he were still live I bet I could take him in a fight.
2. Explain that response from a tribal point of view.
3. Our cultures are gentle and kind to outsiders, and I consider it a sign of strength.  If we were weak we'd be constantly afraid of outsiders.  But "our" culture is America 2.0.
4.

Offline Nipples Von Graham

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Re: Abstraction & Generalization Culture
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2021, 05:16:13 pm »
1. It's not a valid question.  Nobody can rise above tribalism - not even scientists.  Stephen Hawking talks about being personally annoyed at papers challenging his theories.  That said, if he were still live I bet I could take him in a fight.

Trudeau says he has.  Post-national state, multiculturalism.

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3. Our cultures are gentle and kind to outsiders, and I consider it a sign of strength.  If we were weak we'd be constantly afraid of outsiders.  But "our" culture is America 2.0.

1.  Are you saying aboriginals are weak for resisting a ton of outsiders coming and living in their territory?  If a whole bunch of non-aboriginals came in to live on reserves and those aboriginal groups didn't like that because the demographics were trending them to soon become a minority and their cultures were being slowly replaced by non-indigenous cultures, are they weak for this view?

2,  Would they be "strong" for allowing the majority of reserve populations to become non-aboriginal?

3.  Do you think aboriginals should support large numbers of "outsiders" from living on their territory to the point of them becoming a minority and making indigenous culture and outsider cultures equally important?

4.  Are indigenous cultures worthy of preserving?

5.  Do indigenous people who want to preserve their culture differ from MAGA and Brexit folks?  If so, how?

5.  Is British culture, or culture in France or Sweden worthy of preserving?  How does this differ from indigenous cultures, besides feelings of victim/oppressor guilt?

6.  Are the Quebecois "weak" for trying to preserve their language/culture?
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Offline MH

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Re: Abstraction & Generalization Culture
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2021, 08:39:27 pm »

1.  Are you saying aboriginals are weak for resisting a ton of outsiders coming and living in their territory?   
2.  Would they be "strong" for allowing the majority of reserve populations to become non-aboriginal?
3.  Do you think aboriginals should support large numbers of "outsiders" from living on their territory to the point of them becoming a minority and making indigenous culture and outsider cultures equally important?
4.  Are indigenous cultures worthy of preserving?

5.  Do indigenous people who want to preserve their culture differ from MAGA and Brexit folks?  If so, how?

5.  Is British culture, or culture in France or Sweden worthy of preserving? 
5b. How does this differ from indigenous cultures, besides feelings of victim/oppressor guilt?

6.  Are the Quebecois "weak" for trying to preserve their language/culture?

1. 2. 3. No
4. If they want to, they can try.
5. Yes, they are actually preserving cultures that are dying, not whatever ours is.
5. If they want to, they can try.
5b. Nobody is going to preserve anything by keeping people out, persecuting them etc.  The devil is in the details.
6. I think they are, kind of.  They don't realize how strong they are, I think.

But you are taking this in a different direction.  You seem to be pivoting on the term 'tribalism' that I used and asking about ethno-racial cultures or whatever. 

It's fine but I'm trying to figure out a way to characterize how people can convey ideas, generalities and abstractions without falling into fallacies... as per the OP.

Maybe your topic is more engaging actually...

Offline Nipples Von Graham

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Re: Abstraction & Generalization Culture
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2021, 08:52:12 pm »
1. 2. 3. No
4. If they want to, they can try.
5. Yes, they are actually preserving cultures that are dying, not whatever ours is.
5. If they want to, they can try.
5b. Nobody is going to preserve anything by keeping people out, persecuting them etc.  The devil is in the details.
6. I think they are, kind of.  They don't realize how strong they are, I think.

But you are taking this in a different direction.  You seem to be pivoting on the term 'tribalism' that I used and asking about ethno-racial cultures or whatever. 

All of my questions were secretly designed to ask three questions all labeled #5 and see if you could chart them properly.  Congrats you passed.

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It's fine but I'm trying to figure out a way to characterize how people can convey ideas, generalities and abstractions without falling into fallacies... as per the OP.

To avoid fallacies I guess we just don't speak fallacies, especially when speaking controversial topics.

I still think there are no good cops.  But some cops are obviously much better than others.
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Offline MH

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Re: Abstraction & Generalization Culture
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2021, 08:28:01 am »
1. To avoid fallacies I guess we just don't speak fallacies, especially when speaking controversial topics.

2. I still think there are no good cops.  But some cops are obviously much better than others.
1. Well you need to use shorthand sometimes though...
2. And those ones aren't in Toronto.

Offline Dia

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Re: Abstraction & Generalization Culture
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2021, 09:14:16 am »
1. "Sure has been cold lately eh ?" "I would rather not answer until I have time to review vetted data.  Thank you for your inquiry."
2. See #1
3. IOW "People suck"

1/2.  Yes, I was thinking about more weighty topics than the weather. 
3.     Yes.  Except us on this forum, of course.

Offline MH

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Re: Abstraction & Generalization Culture
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2021, 09:26:39 am »
1.  Yes, I was thinking about more weighty topics than the weather. 
2.     Yes.  Except us on this forum, of course.

1. Sure, but the public and private are collapsing in now.
2. Agree.