Author Topic: 1000 Muslims March  (Read 8715 times)

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Offline SirJohn

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Re: 1000 Muslims March
« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2017, 01:53:45 pm »
Christians-- first world ones, at least-- have come a lot farther than the bulk of Muslims on this issue, but there's still plenty of Christian troglodytes around too.   It's ludicrous to suggest that Muslims have a monopoly on homophobia.

Never meant to suggest there weren't some hateful people who happened to consider themselves Christian. Here's the thing, though, they really aren't. I say this as one of those guys who goes to church only for weddings and funerals. Nevertheless, I did go to Catholic school for some years and have a pretty good idea what Jesus Christ was all about, and the likes of the bible-thumping Republicans preaching damnation and cursing gays and fornicators while ignoring the poor and sick are not followers He would claim.

Muhammed, on the other hand, did everything ISIS is doing. You can't say they're a tiny cult which is ignoring the preaching of Muhammed. They're actually following in his footsteps. Saudi Arabia is looked upon by most middle east Muslims (other than Shias) as the upholder of Muhammed and Islam's laws and homosexuality is illegal there, punishable, if they feel particularly indignant that day, by death. At the very least you get lashes and imprisonment.
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Re: 1000 Muslims March
« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2017, 02:45:05 pm »

Muhammed, on the other hand, did everything ISIS is doing. You can't say they're a tiny cult which is ignoring the preaching of Muhammed

My Brother-in-Law, who still goes to Mosque every Friday, prays five times a.day and reads the Koran regularly says that ISIS is doing nothing that Mohammed did and that Mohammed would completely disavow them were he available to do so.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: 1000 Muslims March
« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2017, 06:32:59 pm »
My Brother-in-Law, who still goes to Mosque every Friday, prays five times a.day and reads the Koran regularly says that ISIS is doing nothing that Mohammed did and that Mohammed would completely disavow them were he available to do so.


A list of assassinations and murders ordered by Muhammed.

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Killings_Ordered_or_Supported_by_Muhammad

Muhammad says people who don't come to payer should be burned alive

http://quotingislam.blogspot.ca/2011/06/muhammad-orders-people-burned-up-in.html

Muhammed the rapist and slaver.

http://www.meforum.org/4855/muhammad-and-islam-sex-slaves
« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 06:38:58 pm by SirJohn »
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Offline Hal 9000

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Re: 1000 Muslims March
« Reply #33 on: October 06, 2017, 06:56:36 pm »
My Brother-in-Law, who still goes to Mosque every Friday, prays five times a.day and reads the Koran regularly says that ISIS is doing nothing that Mohammed did and that Mohammed would completely disavow them were he available to do so.

Maybe you're a victim of taqiyya.

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Re: 1000 Muslims March
« Reply #34 on: October 06, 2017, 10:44:17 pm »
Maybe you're a victim of taqiyya.
And maybe you're a victim of stupidity.
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Re: 1000 Muslims March
« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2017, 11:06:25 pm »

A list of assassinations and murders ordered by Muhammed.

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Killings_Ordered_or_Supported_by_Muhammad

Muhammad says people who don't come to payer should be burned alive

http://quotingislam.blogspot.ca/2011/06/muhammad-orders-people-burned-up-in.html

Muhammed the rapist and slaver.

http://www.meforum.org/4855/muhammad-and-islam-sex-slaves

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WikiIslam is an anti-Islamic wiki, describing itself as "[a wiki with] 2800+ critical articles on various areas of Islam based on its own sources, the Qur'an, hadith and Islamic scholars.  Its criticisms of Islam, its adherents, and its supporters are very sharp, and its outlook on these is consistently negative.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/WikiIslam

Meforum.org - Motto: Promoting American Interests.
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Martin Kramer also edits Middle East Quarterly, the house organ of the Middle East Forum, the neo-conservative think tank directed by Daniel Pipes. Pipes has a long record of attempting to incite Americans against Arabs and Muslims.
https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Middle_East_Quarterly

I don't think much of your sources, SJ.  Perhaps you can try again with sources that do not have such a strong anti-Islam bias.   Neutral and objective would be ideal. 
 
In the meantime, in order to help, I provide this link to a list of organizations that are heavily funded to spread an anti-Islam message.   I understand that you consider yourself a rational person, not xenophobic, racist or Islamaphobic, but may I suggest that if you want to be believed, try to avoid those sources with very clear biases. 
https://islamophobianetwork.com/

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Re: 1000 Muslims March
« Reply #36 on: October 07, 2017, 12:23:32 am »

A list of assassinations and murders ordered by Muhammed.

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Killings_Ordered_or_Supported_by_Muhammad 

Muhammed was at war for the last 10 years of his life, and that's what people at war do.  Now, you can claim he was an aggressive asshole and invaded countries for no reason, and maybe you are right.   Others claim that he was attacked, and was only protecting himself and his followers.  Maybe they are right.  But whatever happened for whatever reasons, my brother-in-law, who attends Mosque every Friday and has an Imam telling him all about Islam and Muhammed, believes that what ISIS is doing today would not be acceptable to Muhammed.

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Muhammad says people who don't come to payer should be burned alive

http://quotingislam.blogspot.ca/2011/06/muhammad-orders-people-burned-up-in.html

There is a tradition of the Prophet which states that he wanted to burn down the houses of the hypocrites – those who pretended to be Muslims in order to infiltrate and harm the Muslim community – because they would habitually miss the congregational prayers. However, he only expressed that he wanted to do so but he did not actually do it.   
https://abuaminaelias.com/did-the-prophet-burn-down-peoples-houses-for-missing-the-prayer/

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Muhammed the rapist and slaver.

http://www.meforum.org/4855/muhammad-and-islam-sex-slaves

That seems pretty unlikely since rape is forbidden in Islam, and a man can be put to death for it.  There's even a hadith about it:
Narrated Wa'il ibn Hujr: When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) for prayer, a man attacked her and overpowered (raped) her. She shouted and he went off, and when a man came by, she said: That (man) did such and such to me. And when a company of the Emigrants came by, she said: That man did such and such to me. They went and seized the man whom they thought had had intercourse with her and brought him to her. She said: Yes, this is he. Then they brought him to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him). When he (the Prophet) was about to pass sentence, the man who (actually) had assaulted her stood up and said: Apostle of Allah, I am the man who did it to her. He (the Prophet) said to her: Go away, for Allah has forgiven you. But he told the man some good words (AbuDawud said: meaning the man who was seized), and of the man who had had intercourse with her, he said: Stone him to death. He also said: He has repented to such an extent that if the people of Medina had repented similarly, it would have been accepted from them.  (Sunan Abu Dawud 4366, book of punishment [hudud])
http://www.muslimdebate.org/theological-arguments/answering-islamophobic-claims/236-the-punishment-for-rape-in-islam

I believe Muhammed did take slaves; it has been a pretty common wartime practice throughout history, so it's not like he would have been out of step with his time.  Naturally, we disapprove of that today but it seems only Muhammed is vilified for it:  our Christian crusaders certainly aren't. 
a series of fifteenth century popes argued for the enslavement of non-Christians as "an instrument for Christian conversion." According to church law, Christians were protected from slavery, but Muslim "infidels" and non-Christian "pagans" were acceptable to enslave.
https://tinyurl.com/ya2qjgkz

Now, why you think it's necessary to prove my brother-in-law doesn't know Islam or what Islam teaches about Muhammed is a mystery to me.   He's nearly 60 years old and has had a fuck of a lot more exposure to Islam than you have.   

And, for the record, my brother-in-law is honest and honorable, does not lie, does not approve of homosexuality or adultery or even apostasy, but also does not think its up to him to pass judgement or punishment - that would be up to Allah, as far as he is concerned.   He despises men who do not treat women with respect and gentleness, so much so that he will not have a man in his house if he thinks that man is mistreating his wife.   You may think he's unusual among Muslims, but he's not.  Muslims come in all different ways, just like the rest of us - and most of them are not the cruel, barbaric animals you've convinced yourself is the norm. 

Offline SirJohn

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Re: 1000 Muslims March
« Reply #37 on: October 07, 2017, 11:27:16 am »
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/WikiIslam

I don't think much of your sources, SJ.  Perhaps you can try again with sources that do not have such a strong anti-Islam bias.   Neutral and objective would be ideal. 

The problem with that is that any site or any individual which is critical of Islam is, as we have seen, going to be described as anti-Islam. Even if they are Muslims! Wiki-islam gives the citations for every single assassination and murder ordered by Muhammad, and as such it would be fairly easy to discredit were they untrue. The others likewise give citations as to the origin of the information they provide.
 
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: 1000 Muslims March
« Reply #38 on: October 07, 2017, 11:44:37 am »
Muhammed was at war for the last 10 years of his life, and that's what people at war do.  Now, you can claim he was an aggressive asshole and invaded countries for no reason, and maybe you are right. 

You are missing the point of this conversation. You were suggesting that your brother in law said the stuff ISIS does is in no way justified by Muhammad and the Quran. And yet...

If you read the citations many of those he ordered assassinated were people who were simply critical of him, or who wrote mocking poems of him or otherwise disrespected him. From this springs the almost universal belief among Muslims that it is forbidden to mock the prophet, and in most places, the proper punishment is death.


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There is a tradition of the Prophet which states that he wanted to burn down the houses of the hypocrites – those who pretended to be Muslims in order to infiltrate and harm the Muslim community – because they would habitually miss the congregational prayers. However, he only expressed that he wanted to do so but he did not actually do it.
 

And yet you can see where ISIS gets its justification for burning people alive.

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That seems pretty unlikely since rape is forbidden in Islam,

Against Muslims, yes.

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I believe Muhammed did take slaves; it has been a pretty common wartime practice throughout history, so it's not like he would have been out of step with his time.

But wasn't he the prophet of God? Shouldn't he be above the kind of vicious, carnal brutality of ordinary, barbarous soldiers? Did you ever hear of Jesus Christ taking slaves or raping women? And if Muhammed was able to rape captive non-Muslim women why shouldn't ISIS? For that matter, given the division of the world into the house of peace (muslims) and the house of war (everyone not a muslim) basically any infidel woman is fair game.

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Now, why you think it's necessary to prove my brother-in-law doesn't know Islam or what Islam teaches about Muhammed is a mystery to me.   He's nearly 60 years old and has had a fuck of a lot more exposure to Islam than you have.

And yet, when we see what surveys say of attitudes among Egyptian Muslims we see overwhelming support for the deaths of apostates (86%) and blasphemers,  for the death by stoning of adulterers (81%) and for Sharia law (84%), with 70% explicitly supporting the violent aspects of Sharia, like beheadings and cutting off body parts. We see Christians constantly attacked and murdered, their churches burned down, homosexuality illegal, over 90% of women subjected to female genital mutilation, and massive anti-semitism.  So maybe your brother in law is wildly out of step with the rest of Egypt, or maybe he's just telling you what you want to hear.
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Offline kimmy

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Re: 1000 Muslims March
« Reply #39 on: October 07, 2017, 12:26:08 pm »
Never meant to suggest there weren't some hateful people who happened to consider themselves Christian. Here's the thing, though, they really aren't. I say this as one of those guys who goes to church only for weddings and funerals. Nevertheless, I did go to Catholic school for some years and have a pretty good idea what Jesus Christ was all about, and the likes of the bible-thumping Republicans preaching damnation and cursing gays and fornicators while ignoring the poor and sick are not followers He would claim.

Well, that's your opinion. But clearly a lot of Christians have a different interpretation, and they have scripture to back up their view as well.  (if you're interested, find a Sam Harris podcast where he hosts Megan Phelps, who left the Westboro Baptist Church. She's an extraordinarily bright and well-spoken young woman and she talks about this. It's worth a listen.)

People can always find ways to rationalize their preexisting prejudices. What's-her-name at the other forum at some point posted a long treatise about the idea of "love thy neighbor" and explaining why she and her ilk aren't obliged to love sinners and sodomites and so-on because spiritually speaking those people aren't her neighbor. Her view (or the view of the person she gets her talking points from, anyway) is that Christians are actually only commanded to love like-minded Christians. That notion seems to be very popular among many conservative Christians who clearly don't like people who aren't conservative Christians.

They've rationalized it all, based on their own view of scripture, or by finding scriptural justification to continue their own prejudices.   And who's to tell them they're wrong? There's no central authority in Christianity either. The Catholics have the Pope ...and the current Pope, IMO, reflects the kind of ideas Jesus talked about in the Bible better than any other religious leader I know of.  But a lot of non-Catholic Christians seem to think the current Pope is a godless communist or worse.


Ultimately, it's not a matter of the words in the scripture, it's a matter of the way those words are interpreted in the minds of the followers. And clearly a lot of Christians are very comfortable with a hate-filled interpretation and have somehow rationalized that in their minds.

 -k
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: 1000 Muslims March
« Reply #40 on: October 07, 2017, 03:35:53 pm »
Well, that's your opinion. But clearly a lot of Christians have a different interpretation, and they have scripture to back up their view as well.

They really only do if they use the old testament, which is basically Jewish. What I meant, I suppose, was if you read about Jesus Christ you read about a guy who is peaceful and loving and embracing and forgiving, and if you read about Muhammad you read about a guy who led conquering armies, took women as sex slaves, and ordered people assassinated for mocking him. It's not really a matter of interpretation. If you really take the first guy as your guide you're not going to be beating up gays. If you really take the second guy as your lesson you'll be committing a lot of violence on anyone who fails to abide by Allah's laws.

That's not to say idiots can interpret complex stories any damned way they want, but the examples are pretty clear of what these two did and didn't do.
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Re: 1000 Muslims March
« Reply #41 on: October 08, 2017, 10:55:15 am »
You are missing the point of this conversation. You were suggesting that your brother in law said the stuff ISIS does is in no way justified by Muhammad and the Quran. And yet...
What I said was "My brother-in-law would say that Muhammed would condemn the actions of ISIS".   This is because my brother-in-law is one of those that believes Muhammed was attacked and that he had to go to war to defend himself.  His actions were those of self-defense.   ISIS actions are those of an aggressor.

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If you read the citations many of those he ordered assassinated were people who were simply critical of him, or who wrote mocking poems of him or otherwise disrespected him. From this springs the almost universal belief among Muslims that it is forbidden to mock the prophet, and in most places, the proper punishment is death.

I don't trust that this is true; too many of the sources you rely on have a clearly anti-Islam bias.  But I'm feeling too lazy and disinterested to spend time debunking it, particularly since you've given me so much more current stuff to debunk below.
 
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And yet you can see where ISIS gets its justification for burning people alive.
Yes, there is plenty in Islam to justify all kinds of atrocities.  There is also plenty in the Bible to justify atrocities, which some Christians have also used historically and still use currently.  I know you'll dismiss those Christian activities as irrelevant so you can pretend that what ISIS does and their claims around it are something new and different and exceptionally evil in the world.

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Against Muslims, yes.
If you say so, though I really don't trust much of what you say when it comes to Islam or Egyptians.

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But wasn't he the prophet of God? Shouldn't he be above the kind of vicious, carnal brutality of ordinary, barbarous soldiers? Did you ever hear of Jesus Christ taking slaves or raping women? And if Muhammed was able to rape captive non-Muslim women why shouldn't ISIS? For that matter, given the division of the world into the house of peace (muslims) and the house of war (everyone not a muslim) basically any infidel woman is fair game.

What you should be paying attention to is what the vast majority of Muslims say about ISIS:  It does not represent Islam and it does not follow the teachings of Islam, as far as they are concerned.  Of course ISIS can find justification for whatever it is they are doing, but that doesn't mean that every single Muslim who disagrees with them must be wrong.  That is just your anti-Islam bias, and continuing tendency to smear all Muslims with the ISIS brush.

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And yet, when we see what surveys say of attitudes among Egyptian Muslims we see overwhelming support for the deaths of apostates (86%) and blasphemers,  for the death by stoning of adulterers (81%) and for Sharia law (84%), with 70% explicitly supporting the violent aspects of Sharia, like beheadings and cutting off body parts. We see Christians constantly attacked and murdered, their churches burned down, homosexuality illegal, over 90% of women subjected to female genital mutilation, and massive anti-semitism.  So maybe your brother in law is wildly out of step with the rest of Egypt, or maybe he's just telling you what you want to hear.

These claims are what I feel inclined to research, using some logic and common sense.   

In Egypt, homosexuality is not illegal, but they do round up and jail homosexuals under other laws like "lewdness", similar to what Canada was doing in the 1970s.   This is wrong, I agree.
(By the way,  I notice that you are no longer claiming that they favor putting homosexuals to death, since I pointed out that the question asked was "Do you think a Muslim can be homosexual?" and not "Do you think homosexuals should be put to death?"  This tendency of yours to overstate even your own sources is why I feel justified in dismissing or challenging what you claim about Muslims and Egypt.)

I am assuming you are referring to this survey:  http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/,

First, how many Egyptian Muslims think Sharia should be the law of the land, according to the Pew Survey?   74%.
How many of that 74% think Sharia should apply to everyone, not just Muslims?  Again, 74%.
How many of the Muslims who think Sharia Law should apply to everyone also believe in the most extreme form of Sharia law?  70%

So what we have is that is that really, 38% - 47%, or less than half of Egyptian Muslims - support things like cutting off of hands/death to apostates, stoning for adultery etc.   That's a far cry from the claim you've made above, isn't it?   Still very bad, for sure, but clearly my brother-in-law is not out of step with the social attitudes of his country.   

And please note also, that regardless of what a Pew Research survey says, the law of Egypt does not allow for any of those more extreme forms of Sharia.  For example, according to Wikipedia, Article 98f regarding blasphemy calls for jail sentences of 6 months or more, and a fine of 1000 pounds, and it applies to all faiths, not just Islam.  The penalty for adultery for women is 2 years imprisonment and for men, 6 months.  No stoning allowed.   
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law_in_Egypt
https://www.madamasr.com/en/2015/03/09/feature/society/fight-the-man-laws-that-help-women-and-laws-that-hurt-them/


I am not defending these practices, by the way, only pointing out hyperbolic claims you've made about Egypt.

Persecution against Coptic Christians.   This is definitely true; government policies are biased against Christians and extremists often target Christians.   Nonetheless, the majority of Muslims live peacefully with Christians and condemn attacks against them. 

Anti-Semitism:  Agreed, anti-Semitism exists in Egypt.  At the same time, my brother-in-law says that it's not Jewish people so much as Israeli policy.  Nonetheless, there is no denying the anti-Semitism that exists in Egypt.

FGM:  Is illegal in Egypt, albeit not well enforced.  Nonetheless, the incidence of FGM has been declining and may now be as low as 50%, as per the link I posted yesterday.  Still too many, but the claim that 97% of women undergo FGM is no longer accurate.

Please note that nowhere did I say either Egyptians or Muslims were paragons of virtue, that Egypt was a wonderful place to live, or that there were no problems either among their attitudes or laws.  I merely added a touch of reality to the anti-Islamic rhetoric you are all too eager to believe to support your anti-Muslim stance.



Offline SirJohn

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Re: 1000 Muslims March
« Reply #42 on: October 08, 2017, 11:50:05 am »
What I said was "My brother-in-law would say that Muhammed would condemn the actions of ISIS". 

You are picking nits. Why would Muhammed condemn ISIS taking sex slaves when he did the same? Why would Muhammed condemn murdering those who criticize him when HE had such people murdered?

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This is because my brother-in-law is one of those that believes Muhammed was attacked and that he had to go to war to defend himself.  His actions were those of self-defense.

What does raping girls have to do with self-defense? But I digress...

Verse 9:29 of the Quran reads:
Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued 


https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/muhammad/byzantine-9-29.aspx

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I don't trust that this is true; too many of the sources you rely on have a clearly anti-Islam bias.

I grant you that there are a lot of organizations and people with 'anti-muslim bias' posting things on the internet.  But who else is going to post quotes and histories about Muhammed which might be less than flattering? Certainly no Muslims! And if a Muslim does criticize then he or she goes on the list for their 'anti-Muslim bias' as well anyway. So there simply isn't any easy way to produce completely unbiased sources on this subject. The best which can be done is to produce sources which cite the verifiable justifications and words which support their statements and positions.

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Yes, there is plenty in Islam to justify all kinds of atrocities.  There is also plenty in the Bible to justify atrocities,

This is ever your fallback position. Unfortunately it runs into the problem that no major Christian denomination has interpreted the bible to justify violent things in quite some time. Nor do we see crazy Christians going off like rabid dogs and attacking those around them in the name of Jesus, or flying across the world to attack the unbelievers in heir malls and offices. Nor is every Christian nation (or ANY Christian nation) beset with violent Christian terrorist and guerrilla groups demanding rule by biblical law.

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What you should be paying attention to is what the vast majority of Muslims say about ISIS:

ISIS is not the problem. It is a symptom of the problem. ISIS, Boko Haram, Al Quaeda and the rest are merely reflections of the growing strength and influence of the harsher interpretations of Islam such as Wahhabism and Salafism.

These claims are what I feel inclined to research, using some logic and common sense.   

[qote]In Egypt, homosexuality is not illegal, but they do round up and jail homosexuals under other laws like "lewdness", similar to what Canada was doing in the 1970s.   This is wrong, I agree.[/quote]

You are picking nits again. It is effectively illegal. Same as atheism.

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(By the way,  I notice that you are no longer claiming that they favor putting homosexuals to death,

Many Muslims favor putting homosexuals to death as called for under Sharia law, and homosexuality is illegal in most Muslim countries, and carries the death penalty in many - including the Gaza strip since Israel left.

The rest of what you write is more nitpicking.
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Re: 1000 Muslims March
« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2017, 10:34:46 am »
You are picking nits. Why would Muhammed condemn ISIS taking sex slaves when he did the same? Why would Muhammed condemn murdering those who criticize him when HE had such people murdered?
I am telling you why my brother-in-law, and other Muslims, believe that Muhammed would denounce ISIS.  That is not picking nits.  It seems to me that your determination that my brother-in-law is wrong about what he believes is simply because you believe ISIS is the only true Islam.  Perhaps you'd be happier if my brother-in-law realized the error of his ways and became a jihadi? 

Verse 9:29 of the Quran reads:
Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued 


And what did Allah say about those who did not attack Muslims first?

“God does not forbid you from being good to those who have not fought you in the religion or driven you from your homes, or from being just towards them. God loves those who are just.”
    (Surat al-Mumtahana, 8)

We can play dueling verses all day, but clearly ISIS is going to be using your verse to direct their actions, while my brother-in-law, and those who believe as he does, are going to be using my verse to direct their actions. 

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I grant you that there are a lot of organizations and people with 'anti-muslim bias' posting things on the internet.  But who else is going to post quotes and histories about Muhammed which might be less than flattering? Certainly no Muslims!

Your very next line contradicts this, so I guess I don't have to.

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And if a Muslim does criticize then he or she goes on the list for their 'anti-Muslim bias' as well anyway. So there simply isn't any easy way to produce completely unbiased sources on this subject. The best which can be done is to produce sources which cite the verifiable justifications and words which support their statements and positions.

Sure.  But there are 1.5 billion or so Muslims in the world, very few of whom are out engaging in terrorism, killing people, throwing gays off of roofs, beating and raping women - yet, so often the focus is on how Muhammed was the instigator of all of that.   Why is it that the non-violent Muslims and what they believe and follow is ignored or dismissed, as you are doing here?  I tell you my brother is peaceful and honorable because of what Islam teaches him, and you tell me that can't be right.  Why?   
 
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This is ever your fallback position. Unfortunately it runs into the problem that no major Christian denomination has interpreted the bible to justify violent things in quite some time.


How odd is it that Islamic violence from 1000 years ago can be raised as 'proof' of how violent Islam is, but no Christian violence at any time is considered relevant?   How odd is that even though Christian terrorism happens regularly around the world, including in Western countries, it is discounted because "that's not what mainstream Christians belief", but if it's pointed out that mainstream Muslims don't believe that ISIS has any Islamic basis, it's quickly claimed that someone 1000 years ago did the same thing, so therefore the mainstream Muslims of today must of course support ISIS and similar terrorist groups?

Do you see the contradiction there, even a little bit?

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Nor do we see crazy Christians going off like rabid dogs and attacking those around them in the name of Jesus, or flying across the world to attack the unbelievers in heir malls and offices. Nor is every Christian nation (or ANY Christian nation) beset with violent Christian terrorist and guerrilla groups demanding rule by biblical law.
Well, we do actually.  In Africa, especially, but all over the world.   It's not in the news nearly as much and I grant you is probably not as widespread as Islamic extremists in the Middle East, but it's definitely a problem for the people in those countries.   
https://tinyurl.com/ycky5ybt
https://tinyurl.com/ycxxq9fy
https://tinyurl.com/yc28r8ou
https://tinyurl.com/y8k4jxfd
https://tinyurl.com/jjd9v2a


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ISIS is not the problem. It is a symptom of the problem. ISIS, Boko Haram, Al Quaeda and the rest are merely reflections of the growing strength and influence of the harsher interpretations of Islam such as Wahhabism and Salafism.
I absolutely agree.  And I think part of the solution is to stop discounting people like my brother-in-law.  His version of Islam is better for the world, so why the insistence it doesn't exist/isn't irrelevant/doesn't represent Islam every time I bring it up?   

People accuse me of refusing to accept that "Islam" is the problem, while what I am really saying is that certain "interpretations" of Islam are the problem.  I think its an important distinction that is simply not being made enough.  If I'm going to persuade a young Muslim that ISIS is wrong, I think it's going to be much more effective to focus on the other and peaceful interpretations of Islam, not the ones that support ISIS (and all Islamic terror groups).  You may think that's a pointless exercise on a small Canadian discussion forum, and maybe you would be right.  On the other hand, a lot more people look on these forums than comment on them, so maybe it does make a difference to someone.   

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You are picking nits again.
Perhaps you should try being more accurate in your statements.  Saying something that's not true, and then accusing me of 'picking nits' for noticing is a pretty weak argument.

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It is effectively illegal. Same as atheism.
Yup, that's what I said.

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Many Muslims favor putting homosexuals to death as called for under Sharia law, and homosexuality is illegal in most Muslim countries, and carries the death penalty in many - including the Gaza strip since Israel left.
Yes, in Egypt specifically --- less than half.  That's many, too many, in my opinion.   Ten countries have the death penalty for homosexuals, according to Wikipedia.  Interestingly, some only have it for the men, not the women and some only for Muslim men.   And really, I only mean it's 'interesting' (to me), not that this somehow makes it 'better' or 'ok'. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_penalty_for_homosexuality#Current_regimes_with_the_death_penalty

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The rest of what you write is more nitpicking.
I shall take this to mean you agree that I have presented accurate information to dispute your inaccurate information.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: 1000 Muslims March
« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2017, 08:31:25 pm »
I am telling you why my brother-in-law, and other Muslims, believe that Muhammed would denounce ISIS.  That is not picking nits.

Well it's bloody nonsense given he did the same stuff.

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It seems to me that your determination that my brother-in-law is wrong about what he believes is simply because you believe ISIS is the only true Islam.

Nope. Because I think a guy who routinely took sex slaves and ordered people who mocked him assassinated is unlikely to get pissy about other people doing the same thing in the name of Allah.



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Verse 9:29 of the Quran reads:

Abrogated.

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We can play dueling verses all day, but clearly ISIS is going to be using your verse to direct their actions, while my brother-in-law, and those who believe as he does, are going to be using my verse to direct their actions. 

Clearly ISIS and Saudi Arabia and Iran and Sudan and Lebanon and Pakistan and a whole lot of other Muslims are using verses to decide that citizens who are Muslims are treated better than those who are not, and that men are treated better than women, and that anyone whose social mores are much advanced from the sixth century are severely punished, sometimes killed.

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Sure.  But there are 1.5 billion or so Muslims in the world, very few of whom are out engaging in terrorism

So what? Their society as a whole embraces most of the harsher aspects of social morality and brutal discrimination. That's 57 Muslim states. I don't think it's coincidence.

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How odd is it that Islamic violence from 1000 years ago can be raised as 'proof' of how violent Islam is, but no Christian violence at any time is considered relevant?

Islamic violence never stopped. That's the difference. They're still stoning women and cutting off people's heads. When was the last time we burned a witch?

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How odd is that even though Christian terrorism happens regularly around the world,

That would be odd, if it happened, which it doesn't. Of course 'regularly' is a word open to wide interpretation, I suppose. Have there been tens of thousands of acts of Christian terrorism in the last decade that I missed hearing about?

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Well, we do actually.  In Africa, especially, but all over the world.   It's not in the news nearly as much and I grant you is probably not as widespread as Islamic extremists in the Middle East, but it's definitely a problem for the people in those countries. 

Yeah, that's bullshit. You pull a few stories from a couple of isolated areas of the world, most of which aren't even terrorism, but guerrilla warfare between Muslim and Christian militias, and then say "Well, it's probably not as widespread" like you don't damn well know it's not even in the same universe. There were 155 Islamic acts of terrorism committed just LAST MONTH in 22 countries. They killed 878 people and wounded 760 more.
 
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/attacks.aspx?Yr=Last30

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I absolutely agree.  And I think part of the solution is to stop discounting people like my brother-in-law.

Why should I care about your brother in law? What I care about are the expressed desires of Muslims as shown through polls and surveys, as shown in elections, and as shown by example.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 08:33:14 pm by SirJohn »
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