Author Topic: 1000 Muslims March  (Read 8695 times)

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Offline bcsapper

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Re: 1000 Muslims March
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2017, 12:38:35 pm »
Who among the anti-Muslim has been persuaded that Muslims are against the violence and terror of ISIS?   Certainly not you and you are among the more intelligent. 

It's an ongoing issue and intelligence has little to do with it.  You are fairly intelligent, I suppose, but everytime I post about the horrors Muslims inflict upon infidels and other Muslims alike, you make an effort to convince me and any other readers that I am being unfair to those Muslims who didn't do those things. But I'm not of course.  That there are millions of Muslims whose actions and opinions both of us would find reprehensible is true, I believe, but only one of us is happy to say so.  As to the question why Islam gets picked on so much more than other religions, it's just that it's so much worse.

As to the OP, I'm on record many times as saying no Muslim has any obligation to decry or even comment on the actions of other Muslims, any more than I am obligated to express an opinion about what others who share characteristics with me might get up to.  It's always nice when that happens, of course, but it's a bonus.  Often it's in the face of some pretty strange opposition, as Tarek Fatah and Ayaan Hirsi Ali have found out.
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Offline Goddess

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Re: 1000 Muslims March
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2017, 12:40:20 pm »
I see.  So if I say Muslims do not believe the ideology of violence and terror that ISIS promotes is true Islam, you want to come back with "yabbut what about plural marriage"?

Clever, so clever.

What???

I didn't bring up plural marriage - you did.

I was just asking, since you said plural marriage is not mainstream Muslim and railed against anyone who thought it was, why your sister had to make him sign a paper saying he wouldn't take another wife.
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Offline MH

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Re: 1000 Muslims March
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2017, 12:51:16 pm »
But we don't do that. Muslim reformers are reviled by liberal politicians and ant-racism and feminist groups.

Reviled ?  I think you're overstating it.  Canada has a defacto belief in the melting pot IMO, though many refuse to admit it.

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Re: 1000 Muslims March
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2017, 01:03:05 pm »
What???

I didn't bring up plural marriage - you did.

I was just asking, since you said plural marriage is not mainstream Muslim and railed against anyone who thought it was, why your sister had to make him sign a paper saying he wouldn't take another wife.

Please go back and reread.  I said:
People do not think Christian plural marriage is mainstream Christian belief, and don't require mainstream Christians to regularly denounce it.

ISIS violence and terrorism is not mainstream Muslim belief, yet people keep expecting mainstream Muslims to regularly denounce it.

Offline Goddess

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Re: 1000 Muslims March
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2017, 02:23:02 pm »
OK. I see what you're saying now.  My apologies.
Sometimes when there are so many points in one post, I find it a bit harder to follow than if it were a discussion.  And your style of defending Islam is much more aggressive and confrontational than the other board where we sometimes discuss this.  (Not MLW)
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: 1000 Muslims March
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2017, 02:35:20 pm »
Reviled ?  I think you're overstating it.  Canada has a defacto belief in the melting pot IMO, though many refuse to admit it.

Yes, but even so, when Tarek Fatah testified at the M103 hearings he says he was treated so shabbily and with such hostility by Liberal and NDP members that one of them called him afterward to apologize. The Southern Poverty law Center put both Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Maajid Nawaz on its list of Islamophobe hatemongers. And does anyone think Irshad Manji will be testifying before the Islamophobia committee?
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Re: 1000 Muslims March
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2017, 02:54:56 pm »
OK. I see what you're saying now.  My apologies.
Sometimes when there are so many points in one post, I find it a bit harder to follow than if it were a discussion.  And your style of defending Islam is much more aggressive and confrontational than the other board where we sometimes discuss this.  (Not MLW)

Well I can't deny that, since similar has been said to me off and online before.  Which is why I laugh when Argus periodically tries to insult me by calling me wishy-washy or tentative in his imagination of how I would interact with Muslims I disagree with.

Thanks for the apology, I respect and appreciate that.   I can work on softening my tone.

Offline Peter F

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Re: 1000 Muslims March
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2017, 02:57:18 pm »
But plural marriage is not a Christian thing. Hating homos is, however, a Muslim thing. Are you going to say that the slaughter in a gay bar in Orlando and the poll where 50% of Muslims in the UK said homosexuality should be illegal are unrelated? Is it unrelated to the fact homosexuality is punishable by death under Islam? Is the response from ISIS on the subject unrelated to those things too?

“Shortly following the blessed attack on a sodomite, Crusader nightclub by the mujahid Omar Mateen, American politicians were quick to jump into the spotlight and denounce the shooting, declaring it a hate crime, an act of terrorism, and an act of senseless violence. A hate crime? Yes. Muslims undoubtedly hate liberalist sodomites, as does anyone else with any shred of their fitrah (inborn human nature) still intact."

It's not unrelated.

and this very statement of yours is not unrelated to the Quebec mosque shootings?  Here's your double-standard on display again. A blinkered double-standard at that considering your previous statement
But we don't do that. Muslim reformers are reviled by liberal politicians and ant-racism and feminist groups.

  It's you who doesn't give a shit about reformers. You don't want Muslim immigrants PERIOD.  Reformers? You don't give a shit about reformers. They're Muslims !
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Offline Goddess

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Re: 1000 Muslims March
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2017, 03:04:16 pm »
Quote
And does anyone think Irshad Manji will be testifying before the Islamophobia committee?

I watched for her name to come up in the hearings too, but was disappointed.  Even more disappointed by Fateh's account of how the hearings went.

I've read so  much of them and other reformers (like Hirsi Ali) and they offer some real solutions to Islam's issues.  I understand why most Muslims don't want to hear from them ( I don't understand the death fatwas issued against them, though), it's a bitter pill to swallow, admitting your religion has some serious problems - I had to do that, too, with my religion.  But I don't understand why so many people who "say" they are Islam supporters refuse to acknowledge what they have to say.
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Offline Goddess

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Re: 1000 Muslims March
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2017, 03:12:26 pm »
Quote
ISIS violence and terrorism is not mainstream Muslim belief, yet people keep expecting mainstream Muslims to regularly denounce it.

Just as a side point, on my favourite discussion board there's also a woman with Muslim family who sets us straight on things from time to time.

She posted a long post a little while ago listing all the reasons why they should be regularly denouncing it.  It was quite interesting.  I have mad respect for her.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: 1000 Muslims March
« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2017, 06:06:15 pm »
and this very statement of yours is not unrelated to the Quebec mosque shootings?  Here's your double-standard on display again. A blinkered double-standard at that considering your previous statement  It's you who doesn't give a shit about reformers. You don't want Muslim immigrants PERIOD.  Reformers? You don't give a shit about reformers. They're Muslims !

I'm not sure what drugs you were taking when you responded to my post, but your answer seems to have nothing whatsoever to do with what I wrote. I would suggest you give it a little time for the drugs to wear off, maybe try a different kind of drug and then try your response again.
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Offline kimmy

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Re: 1000 Muslims March
« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2017, 10:06:30 pm »
“Shortly following the blessed attack on a sodomite, Crusader nightclub by the mujahid Omar Mateen, American politicians were quick to jump into the spotlight and denounce the shooting, declaring it a hate crime, an act of terrorism, and an act of senseless violence. A hate crime? Yes. Muslims undoubtedly hate liberalist sodomites, as does anyone else with any shred of their fitrah (inborn human nature) still intact."

It's not unrelated.

There were several Christian pastors, plus no shortage of rank-and-file so-called Christians who said similar things. Not just Westboro either. "50 less pedophiles! Orlando is a little safer tonight!"   "The tragedy is that more of them didn't die!" "I'll pray to God that God will finish the job that that man (Omar Mateen) started."  "These people all should have been killed, anyway, but they should have been killed through the proper channels, as in they should have been executed by a righteous government."  -Pastors Jimenez, Romero, and Anderson.
 https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/28/us/pastors-praise-anti-gay-massacre-in-orlando-prompting-outrage.html


Christians-- first world ones, at least-- have come a lot farther than the bulk of Muslims on this issue, but there's still plenty of Christian troglodytes around too.   It's ludicrous to suggest that Muslims have a monopoly on homophobia.

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Offline kimmy

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Re: 1000 Muslims March
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2017, 10:16:33 pm »
Yes, but even so, when Tarek Fatah testified at the M103 hearings he says he was treated so shabbily and with such hostility by Liberal and NDP members that one of them called him afterward to apologize. The Southern Poverty law Center put both Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Maajid Nawaz on its list of Islamophobe hatemongers. And does anyone think Irshad Manji will be testifying before the Islamophobia committee?

And that's nothing new. I've Tarek Fatah is the guy I always think of when I think of how Muslims could exist in a modern, progressive, pluralistic society. He's one of the good-guys.   But the way most progressives talk about him, it's like he's the worst person since Hitler.  I've seen him called an "Uncle Tom", and a sell-out, and "the Muslim that Muslim-haters go to to justify their hatred of Muslims" and "the 'Some of My Best Friends Are Muslims' Muslim".   That's crap.   The progressives by and large are so oversensitive to criticism of Muslims that anybody-- even a Muslim reformer like Tarek Fatah-- who'd dare criticize Muslims must be attacked and silenced.

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Offline kimmy

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Re: 1000 Muslims March
« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2017, 10:33:23 pm »
It's not their ideology, so why would you expect them to tackle it?

Because ISIS version of Islam is turning Muslims into terrorists.

Absolutely.

One of the signs in the march points out that most of ISIS's victims are Muslim.  Consider the people directly killed by ISIS, and the people who've been killed or displaced from their homes because of ISIS and the war in Syria. And then consider that ISIS is luring young Muslims away from their homes to fight that war.  They're not recruiting atheists and Jews to go die in Syria.

If somebody was trying to lure my imaginary kids away to participate in some ridiculous war where they'll surely die, I would be awfully upset about it. I'd be doing everything in my power to try and stop it. But it's not my imaginary kids that are getting recruited. It's the Muslim community's kids.


I mean, forget the inevitable anger directed towards Muslims in the wake of things like the incident in Edmonton.  ISIS is stealing the most precious thing Muslims have-- their own kids. I think that would be the most powerful motivation imaginable for Muslims to confront ISIS.

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Offline MH

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Re: 1000 Muslims March
« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2017, 05:48:50 am »
Yes, but even so, when Tarek Fatah testified at the M103 hearings he says he was treated so shabbily and with such hostility by Liberal and NDP members that one of them called him afterward to apologize. The Southern Poverty law Center put both Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Maajid Nawaz on its list of Islamophobe hatemongers. And does anyone think Irshad Manji will be testifying before the Islamophobia committee?

I accept your points here.  Progressive people need to separate out Islamophobia from criticism, especially from within.