Author Topic: "Me Too" Blowback  (Read 1671 times)

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Offline bcsapper

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Re: "Me Too" Blowback
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2018, 11:34:12 am »
Meh.  This is the "nothing changes" or "there is nothing new under the sun" comment, which I find to be smug, trite and - more importantly - dull.  Things are different, things do change.  Before the enlightenment they would drown women to prove they weren't witches... a few centuries later capital punishment was banned, then brought back, then it started to go away again.

Do you think the primary driver for social change is how dull you find things?

Go ahead, fix mobs!
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Offline kimmy

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Re: "Me Too" Blowback
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2018, 11:59:10 am »
I don't get the 'shielding' part, but I do see people calling out negative experiences and bringing down the entire idea of the 'public' persona.

I was thinking of some of the other things going on-- the idea that students in Lindsay Shepherd's seminar had to be protected from hearing the Jordan Peterson debate clip, the idea that we need trigger warnings to protect people from subjects that are part of everyday reality, the idea that clapping is frightening for some people so we should use "jazz hands" or snap our fingers when we applaud.  There seems to be a movement to protect people from stuff they don't need to be protected from.

And to me the women who've complained about Aziz Ansari and Patrick Brown fit the theme.  These are legal adults who made their own decisions and later felt unhappy and want to blame somebody other than themselves for their disappointment.  They seem to feel that they should have been protected from their own actions. "I was given drinks."  "I was taken to his home."   It's as if they don't have any agency... they don't do things, things just happen to them.

 -k
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Offline MH

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Re: "Me Too" Blowback
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2018, 12:03:11 pm »
What is gentlemanly about sex with people you aren't involved in a relationship with?

In today's protocol, I would answer "how you conduct yourself" to that question.

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Given how often alcohol is involved how many young men are 'gentlemanly' about such things today?

Pretty impossible to answer that question.

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The whole concept of 'gentleman' seems old fashioned and quaint in an era decades after the idea of holding the door for a woman began to be sneered at as sexist and paternalistic.

Which is why I use it purposefully and only partially ironically.  Protocols signal virtue in times of low virtue, right ?

Offline MH

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Re: "Me Too" Blowback
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2018, 12:06:04 pm »
Do you think the primary driver for social change is how dull you find things?

Wow, that is a weird twist !  I was commenting on the quality of your 'meh' comment.  How did you stretch that into a comment about social change ?

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Go ahead, fix mobs!

Well... we both have come up with the 'several women' adjustment which seems to provide some kind of validation.  How about the source ?  Maybe I can ask YOU - what watermarks on a report of inappropriate/abusive/related behavior do you pay attention to?

Offline bcsapper

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Re: "Me Too" Blowback
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2018, 12:18:59 pm »
Wow, that is a weird twist !  I was commenting on the quality of your 'meh' comment.  How did you stretch that into a comment about social change ?

Well... we both have come up with the 'several women' adjustment which seems to provide some kind of validation.  How about the source ?  Maybe I can ask YOU - what watermarks on a report of inappropriate/abusive/related behavior do you pay attention to?

You suggested "something else" other than innocent until proven guilty as a response to mob rule.  If that's not social change what is?  You then seemed to suggest that mob rule was something we can change is only we have a little imagination.  Deal with that.  Make a suggestion.  Let's see what you can come up with to replace due process and take power out of the hands of the mob at the same time.

Should be fascinating.

As to your second question, I'm old fashioned.  I would still go with due process. If I was innocent, and it were at all possible, I would sue.

As to the mob, no suggestions.
Time for bed said Zebedee...

Offline waldo

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Re: "Me Too" Blowback
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2018, 12:21:32 pm »
Excesses are expected but if moderate women speak out about the excesses it is possible to get to scope back to where it should be.

Judith Curry - a woman in science since the 70s has some thoughts which I think capture where the scope should be:
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Resist playing the victim card ó instead,  focus on changing policies and weeding out the serial harassers.

it's a fitting attempt there TimG; however... it's lost in missing credibility; the fact Curry feeds on her own need to feel "attacked" by legitimate scientists so she can play the victim - it appears to validate her and offer the rationalization for why she went 'off the reservation' and became the darling of "skeptics" and Republican's clamoring for her presence before U.S. House/Senate committees (ala her CrazyAuntJudy persona)!

certainly #MeToo isn't about fake/false victimhood, right?


Offline MH

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Re: "Me Too" Blowback
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2018, 12:25:25 pm »
You suggested "something else" other than innocent until proven guilty as a response to mob rule.  If that's not social change what is? 

Yeah but... "primary driver" ?  What ?

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You then seemed to suggest that mob rule was something we can change is only we have a little imagination.  Deal with that.  Make a suggestion.  Let's see what you can come up with to replace due process and take power out of the hands of the mob at the same time.

Yes, I asked you the same thing.  I'm working on it.

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Should be fascinating.
 

Maybe these stories will poop out people who can be seen as 'objective' ?  Like Lindsay Shepherd.  She maybe had the potential to be somebody who could stand astride the cultural gap and say "yes, THIS but THAT".  The article cyber put up painted her as impartial, though...

Offline bcsapper

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Re: "Me Too" Blowback
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2018, 12:44:02 pm »
Yeah but... "primary driver" ?  What ?

Yes, I asked you the same thing.  I'm working on it.

Maybe these stories will poop out people who can be seen as 'objective' ?  Like Lindsay Shepherd.  She maybe had the potential to be somebody who could stand astride the cultural gap and say "yes, THIS but THAT".  The article cyber put up painted her as impartial, though...

Ooh, goalpost change?  You seemed to take umbrage with my "social change" comment but it's actually my "primary driver" comment?  Your problem with my comment was not that it was wrong, but that it was smug, trite and most importantly, dull.  I chose dull because you said it was the most important negative with regard to it.  You seemed to suggest that, if only I had an interesting plan, all would be well.

I agree it's not possible to be objective given the current tsunami.  Who has the time?  It's headlines only.
Time for bed said Zebedee...

Offline MH

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Re: "Me Too" Blowback
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2018, 12:51:51 pm »
Ooh, goalpost change?  You seemed to take umbrage with my "social change" comment but it's actually my "primary driver" comment?

Umbrage ?  Not exactly.  It was more like the sound of head scratching you heard.

 

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Re: "Me Too" Blowback
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2018, 01:01:20 pm »
I'm uncomfortable with the way everything is basically taking a very female perspective

I agree, at least somewhat.  Especially for those women who are deliberately vindictive, who make things up to get back at some guy.  If a woman tells lies about a man, he can be investigated - lose access to his kids, lose his job, have his entire life severely curtailed.  If nothing is turned up, if the allegations are completely false, the woman faces no consequences whatsoever.  That, to me, is wrong.

But then of course, there are the cases where the woman's complaints are not taken seriously enough and people die as a result.  Or women who end up in court facing their attacker, having to defend their own behavior and then watching their attacker walk out, scot-free, because the decision of the court was basically that her essentially normal behavior means his violence is acceptable.

There just doesn't seem to be any simple answer, no clear villain, nobody to "blame" really.




Offline bcsapper

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Re: "Me Too" Blowback
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2018, 01:07:28 pm »
Umbrage ?  Not exactly.  It was more like the sound of head scratching you heard.

Well, head scratching is the order of the day, certainly.

Not to worry.  Who ever said full comprehension was an absolute necessity on an internet forum?
Time for bed said Zebedee...

Offline MH

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Re: "Me Too" Blowback
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2018, 01:26:20 pm »
   Who ever said full comprehension was an absolute necessity on an internet forum?


Offline SirJohn

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Re: "Me Too" Blowback
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2018, 02:33:29 pm »
I agree, at least somewhat.  Especially for those women who are deliberately vindictive, who make things up to get back at some guy.  If a woman tells lies about a man, he can be investigated - lose access to his kids, lose his job, have his entire life severely curtailed.  If nothing is turned up, if the allegations are completely false, the woman faces no consequences whatsoever.  That, to me, is wrong.

Given the Brown case I'm reminded of the Canadian **** law around alcohol. It states that being inebriated makes you incapable of rationality, and thus incapable of giving consent, even if you do. It also states just as clearly that inebriation is no excuse for you having sex with someone else who is inebriated. It's intellectually absurd. And while they strive to pretend this is even handed, we all know that men don't wake up after a night of sex with such regrets they're going to go to police to complain that he was too drunk when he agreed. So it works out it's men who get arrested, and when they protest "but I was drunk too" well, that's irrelevant.

It seems like the proper way for sexual relationships to be conducted now is the way women think they should be. If you don't, then like Brown, even if what you did was legal, you're a creep and a louse and a loser. A man in his thirties trying to seduce an 18 year old!? Disgusting! Revolting! Seriously? Much is made of these womens ages as if Brown was some kind of child molester, but all he was doing was demonstrating the normal male interest in attractive young women. Now most of us look for more age appropriate women - when we're seeking relationships. But for just sex ... ah, but you're not supposed to just want sex! Besides, most of us figure by the time we're in our mid thirties that we'd just as soon not risk making asses of ourselves by trying to get a woman who thinks you're an "old man" as one of them described him, interested. Well, unless we're rich.

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But then of course, there are the cases where the woman's complaints are not taken seriously enough and people die as a result.

Rare. I think most of those cases you're referring to involved women complaining a man was a danger to them. The problem with that is there's no law against someone perceiving you as dangerous. Until you actually DO something there isn't much police can do. And even after they make an arrest, the courts almost always let people out on bail for anything short of murder.
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Offline bcsapper

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Re: "Me Too" Blowback
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2018, 02:44:45 pm »
Given the Brown case I'm reminded of the Canadian **** law around alcohol. It states that being inebriated makes you incapable of rationality, and thus incapable of giving consent, even if you do. It also states just as clearly that inebriation is no excuse for you having sex with someone else who is inebriated. It's intellectually absurd.

It does sound like most of us have been raped at one time or another.  I wonder how real **** victims feel about it.

Short of actual unconsciousness, I think people have to take responsibility for their behaviour while drunk.
Time for bed said Zebedee...

Offline cybercoma

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Re: "Me Too" Blowback
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2018, 02:54:53 pm »
Itís fascinating that thereís such a strong inclination to feel bad for accused men and not the accusers.