Author Topic: "Me Too" Blowback  (Read 1671 times)

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Offline Goddess

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"Me Too" Blowback
« on: January 26, 2018, 05:14:32 pm »
I think this started as a good movement, but as it progresses I'm getting more and more disappointed in the dragnet that its producing.  Some of the accusations, in my opinion, are barely newsworthy - nothing more than clumsy, drunken attempts at persuading women to sleep with men. 

It started off exposing powerful men who used their positions to force women into doing things they didn't want to do, which needed exposing.  But now its turned into a bit of a gong show.

We're all mammals, we're all trying to get laid.  I don't think destroying a career is the answer or shaming someone because of a bumbling attempt at getting some back in college.

I'm starting to worry a bit about possible blowback for women now.  I'm seeing a lot of angry men all over the internet and the comments are sometimes scary.  Too many are expressing a desire for women to STFU, get back in the kitchen and make them a sammich.

I'm starting to think this could turn out very bad for women in the end.   :-\
"A religion without a Goddess is half-way to atheism."

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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: "Me Too" Blowback
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2018, 05:32:42 pm »
I'm not too worried about what a bunch of losers have to say.  If they feel women need to get in the kitchen, it's a sentiment they've likely had long before this issue.

But I agree with the rest.  Women show unwanted attention toward men as well and I don't see them crying a river and trying to destroy careers.

It's definitely gotten out of hand.

Offline TimG

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Re: "Me Too" Blowback
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2018, 05:39:53 pm »
The Weinsteins of the world need to be stopped. Clearly the normal legal system was not working.

Excesses are expected but if moderate women speak out about the excesses it is possible to get to scope back to where it should be.

Judith Curry - a woman in science since the 70s has some thoughts which I think capture where the scope should be:
https://judithcurry.com/2017/12/10/girls-rules/#more-23660

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This really is a tremendous opportunity for rapid and essential cultural change. To seize this moment, we need to:

Provide an unambiguous definition of sexual harassment that clearly distinguishes **** and quid pro quo from minor social transgressions.  Codes of conduct are needed. Due process should be followed for addressing any accusations.  Avoid turning this situation into a land mine for males.

Provide institutional support and train females to become more resilient and anti-fragile in the face of career challenges and in avoiding potential harassment situations.  Your behavior and dress matters.

Resist playing the victim card — instead,  focus on changing policies and weeding out the serial harassers.

Recognize that there are also female predators: I know of examples in my field of serial  ‘power ****’,  and a female who cried **** when a consensual relationship didn’t go the way she wanted and also attempted to destroy the career of a young female scientist of whom she was jealous.  Females shouldn’t get a free pass for sexual or other types of harassment.

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Offline Goddess

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Re: "Me Too" Blowback
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2018, 05:46:06 pm »
Yes, that's what I'm talking about, TimG.

This issue has become a runaway train, barely on the tracks and it needs to get under better control.
"A religion without a Goddess is half-way to atheism."

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: "Me Too" Blowback
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2018, 06:37:50 pm »
The #metoo movement I think has been, on the whole, wonderful for women & society in general.  The thing that needs to be kept in mind is that people are innocent until proven guilty.  That doesn't mean we shouldn't take every harrassment complaint very seriously.  But unless it's a Bill Cosby-type situation where dozens of women have come forward and the guilt looks pretty overwhelming, we need to reserve judgement until the evidence is laid bare and the process does its job.  Otherwise it's chaos, and people can ruin careers & lives based on completely made-up claims.
"The economy has been relatively strong but Trudeau has chosen to run deficits year after year & has said will continue to do so well into the future.  This means we'll be in a worse & more vulnerable financial position when a recession hits when we HAVE to run deficits again." - Me, Oct. 3, 2019

Offline Omni

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Re: "Me Too" Blowback
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2018, 09:26:29 pm »
I wonder if Trump's comments that were aired about how "you can greb 'em by the **** and they love it if you're a star" was a bit of a tipping point where women got pissed off and decided to fight back, and then perhaps the pendulum swung a bit too far the other way.

Offline MH

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Re: "Me Too" Blowback
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2018, 09:42:19 am »
   The thing that needs to be kept in mind is that people are innocent until proven guilty. 

That is a good idea in theory, but institutions have eroded under the digital era and replaced by collective (mob) rule.  You're pretty smart - suggest something else.

One thing that is emerging is the meme of "multiple accusers", which effectively brands the suspected one as 'guilty'.

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  But unless it's a Bill Cosby-type situation where dozens of women have come forward and the guilt looks pretty overwhelming, we need to reserve judgement until the evidence is laid bare and the process does its job.  Otherwise it's chaos, and people can ruin careers & lives based on completely made-up claims.

Right, you got there.  Except that number is now down to two.  The solution to careers being ruined is for people to forgive.  That's a concept that has been lost to us ie. collective forgiveness.  But if we complain about all infractions, even simple impropriety, then we have to also have a range of responses and paths to forgiveness.
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Offline wilber

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Re: "Me Too" Blowback
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2018, 09:51:11 am »
That is a good idea in theory, but institutions have eroded under the digital era and replaced by collective (mob) rule.  You're pretty smart - suggest something else.

One thing that is emerging is the meme of "multiple accusers", which effectively brands the suspected one as 'guilty'.

Right, you got there.  Except that number is now down to two.  The solution to careers being ruined is for people to forgive.  That's a concept that has been lost to us ie. collective forgiveness.  But if we complain about all infractions, even simple impropriety, then we have to also have a range of responses and paths to forgiveness.

So true. The internet has made mob rule and piling on much easier and less likely to have consequences for the mobsters.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline MH

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Re: "Me Too" Blowback
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2018, 10:26:42 am »
So true. The internet has made mob rule and piling on much easier and less likely to have consequences for the mobsters.

Challenge and response... we are at the point of leadership failure so a new order will ascend...

Offline bcsapper

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Re: "Me Too" Blowback
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2018, 10:47:35 am »
That is a good idea in theory, but institutions have eroded under the digital era and replaced by collective (mob) rule.  You're pretty smart - suggest something else.

There is nothing else.  Mob rule has existed for as long as a mob were possible, given the numbers.  It's wrong, it's awful, it's whatever you want to call it, but it's not going away.  It's probably a good thing in one regard that the smartphone has replaced the pitchfork, but bad in another in that the mob got a lot bigger.

I don't know the particulars in this case other than the headlines, but he didn't have to resign.  He could have announced his version of the facts and said he'd see them in court.
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Offline kimmy

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Re: "Me Too" Blowback
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2018, 10:48:14 am »
Judith Curry -
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become more resilient and anti-fragile

Fragile is a good word to describe what is going on.  It's starting to seem as if people are viewing every negative or unpleasant experience as a traumatic event and rushing to find ways of shielding people from everything. People don't need to be shielded from everything. People need to become better at dealing with adversity, because adversity is an unavoidable part of life.


 -k
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: "Me Too" Blowback
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2018, 10:54:10 am »
So true. The internet has made mob rule and piling on much easier and less likely to have consequences for the mobsters.

I'm uncomfortable with the way everything is basically taking a very female perspective which fails to acknowledge that male and female motivations are often entirely different when it comes to sex, and basically moralizing that male behavior is sleazy and nasty while female behavior is sainted and timid and helpless and pure. And yes, for the simpletons, that is called generalizing and not meant to apply in 100% of cases.

Sure, Weinstein is a douche. We can all agree on that, presuming half the stuff being said about him is true. All Brown seems to have been was an awkward young man who perhaps isn't all that good at seduction. Nevertheless, nobody, other than a few female columnists (and Kimmy), seems to even question why these women went to his home and went to his bedroom and sat on his bed with him. Because, apparently, women are sainted, helpless, timid souls.

The new Tory leader was quick to say "I believe these women." Really? Who are they? You don't know? You've never seen them. You've never heard them speak. You know nothing whatsoever about them which would lead you to be able to judge the veracity of their words. You have no idea whether they might have embellished, exaggerated, altered things a bit to make themselves look good, or misremembered. One was 'plied with alcohol'. I guess that's a better way for her to say it than "Yeah, I drank too much and  got stinking drunk" because it removes any hint she might be in any way responsible. Yet this seems to be what society is saying. We have to "believe" whatever women say without question. Sorry, but I've known too many women. And they're as capable of lying, altering their memories to make themselves look good, and exaggerating as men are.

Ontario's idiot of an NDP leader, when asked about whether there ought to be due process, angrily brought up the Jian Gomesh trial and said the justice system was failing women. But it didn't. That trial revealed that the women had lied, had colluded, and had left out information which might make them look bad. The trial judge rightly found Gomesh not guilty. But to the SJWs like Andrea Horvath that was just an example of an evil man acting like, well, a heterosexual man, getting off without being properly punished!

Or, as NDP Leader Andrea Horwath snapped Thursday, when a reporter almost apologetically raised, you know, that presumption of innocence thing: “I really have two words — Jian Ghomeshi.”
Here’s two other words: “Not guilty.”
And if Horwath followed the trial, which I presume she did, she would know why the prosecution of the creepy CBC star fell apart: the complainants were not credible; at least two of them seemingly colluded before testifying; all three withheld from police crucial information about their relationships with the defendant. The case should never have come to court.


https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/patrick-browns-downfall-an-affront-to-fairness/ar-AAvbm8O?li=AAadgLE&ocid=spartanntp


It is not brave to speak from the shadows. It is not courageous to vilify anybody from within bubble-wrapped camouflage.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/patrick-browns-downfall-an-affront-to-fairness/ar-AAvbm8O?li=AAadgLE&ocid=spartanntp
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline MH

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Re: "Me Too" Blowback
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2018, 11:01:29 am »
There is nothing else.  Mob rule has existed for as long as a mob were possible, given the numbers.  It's wrong, it's awful, it's whatever you want to call it, but it's not going away.  It's probably a good thing in one regard that the smartphone has replaced the pitchfork, but bad in another in that the mob got a lot bigger.

Meh.  This is the "nothing changes" or "there is nothing new under the sun" comment, which I find to be smug, trite and - more importantly - dull.  Things are different, things do change.  Before the enlightenment they would drown women to prove they weren't witches... a few centuries later capital punishment was banned, then brought back, then it started to go away again.

Why ?

It's the great human experiment.  Something changes, there's an adjustment, then eventually a tectonic shift and it all starts again...

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I don't know the particulars in this case other than the headlines, but he didn't have to resign.  He could have announced his version of the facts and said he'd see them in court.

Is this Brown ?  There is no court.  This is just gentlemanly behaviour, circa 2018, that is being examined.  These leaders are all younger now, they should know about this stuff.

Offline MH

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Re: "Me Too" Blowback
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2018, 11:02:34 am »
It's starting to seem as if people are viewing every negative or unpleasant experience as a traumatic event and rushing to find ways of shielding people from everything. People don't need to be shielded from everything.

I don't get the 'shielding' part, but I do see people calling out negative experiences and bringing down the entire idea of the 'public' persona.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: "Me Too" Blowback
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2018, 11:23:10 am »
Is this Brown ?  There is no court.  This is just gentlemanly behaviour, circa 2018, that is being examined.  These leaders are all younger now, they should know about this stuff.

What is gentlemanly about sex with people you aren't involved in a relationship with? Given how often alcohol is involved how many young men are 'gentlemanly' about such things today? The whole concept of 'gentleman' seems old fashioned and quaint in an era decades after the idea of holding the door for a woman began to be sneered at as sexist and paternalistic.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum