Author Topic: What you need to get a Tim Horton's  (Read 2021 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Michael Hardner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12467
Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #150 on: January 21, 2018, 07:53:07 am »
You are again resorting to moral arguments. You need to stop that since your morality really should not be the focus of discussion.

You are also being utterly illogical by pretending that socioeconomic upbringing does not impact course selection. You recently posted a paper showing how universities have become basically job factories whereby young people go to get their papers stamped so they can make more money. Are you going to try to pretend that people raised without any economic cares are not going to be more prone to taking courses without as much regard to likely economic payoff?

You are the one who tried to say that people who "don't worry about money" take soft courses, ie. they want some kind of easy ticket.

Yes, the universities are seen as a ticket to middle-class life but that is not how things will turn out for these people. And the assessment of why people go to university/college doesn't cast aspersions on their course choices, how much they work and so on.  Those are your assumptions.  If I am wrong then ok, let's move on.

Quote
That's just arrogance. It will have almost no impact on me either. Both of us make lots of money. It WILL have a negative impact on lower economic earners, however, who will find things getting more expensive. This will transfer money from them to minimum wage earners, just as it transfers it from you and me. But we have a sufficiently high income we'll barely notice.

Arrogance ?  It sounds like you and I are in the same boat and have the same take on it, so....

Quote
Which economic decision? This raise is not based on economics and you know it.

 

Ok, we are talking past each other.

Yes, I concur that this is being submitted for political reasons, cloaked in a high moral cause. I don't think there is much point in us discussing that angle in depth other than tagging it as being done for political reasons cloaked in high moral cause.

Also I want to point out that the best argument against such changes, politically, is to say that they will not work.


Offline SirJohn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5801
Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #151 on: January 21, 2018, 11:10:33 am »
You are the one who tried to say that people who "don't worry about money" take soft courses, ie. they want some kind of easy ticket.

No, my point was that if you grow up never worrying about money you tend to presume money will always be there and worrying about it is not part of your mindset. Thus when you look to a career there is more of a tendency to go for what you like and are interested in without really worrying too much about the money. If you grow up poor then financial insecurity is part of who you are and your course selection will be much more affected by that.

Quote
Arrogance ?  It sounds like you and I are in the same boat and have the same take on it, so....

Yes, but your attitude seems to be that since it won't cause you any notice it's not really a problem, and good on those poor fellows for making more now. My attitude is that I feel an injustice is being done to those people who worked hard to get where they are, even if that's not nearly where I am, and a noticeable amount of money is going to be siphoned away by this scheme. In addition to being unjust it's also bad economic theory.

Quote
Yes, I concur that this is being submitted for political reasons, cloaked in a high moral cause. I don't think there is much point in us discussing that angle in depth other than tagging it as being done for political reasons cloaked in high moral cause.
Also I want to point out that the best argument against such changes, politically, is to say that they will not work.

I've already pointed out that the beneficiaries (along with everyone else) will now face higher prices which will take much of that increase away. However as politics, I believe it WILL work. The poor and those who are related to them will be quite happy at the 'generosity' of the Wynne government, and a lot of mushy minded people will also feel, without putting much thought into it, that this is right because people "deserve a living wage".
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Michael Hardner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12467
Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #152 on: January 21, 2018, 01:30:05 pm »
No, my point was that if you grow up never worrying about money you tend to presume money will always be there and worrying about it is not part of your mindset. Thus when you look to a career there is more of a tendency to go for what you like and are interested in without really worrying too much about the money. If you grow up poor then financial insecurity is part of who you are and your course selection will be much more affected by that.

I don't think there is any basis for your guess on that.  Everybody I knew wanted to get a well-paying career. 

You have disdain for women's studies, and that seems to be where this is coming from. 

Quote
Yes, but your attitude seems to be that since it won't cause you any notice it's not really a problem, and good on those poor fellows for making more now.

You are pre-disposed to make your own opinion into what my attitude is.  Here is my EXACT quote from above:

"This legislation will have almost no impact on me, but that doesn't mean I don't care."

Quote
My attitude is that I feel an injustice is being done to those people who worked hard to get where they are, even if that's not nearly where I am, and a noticeable amount of money is going to be siphoned away by this scheme. In addition to being unjust it's also bad economic theory.

Yes, I am not denying you a moral position but I don't see the point of trying to discuss morality if people just feel differently about it.  I want to hear about the economic theory part.

Quote

I've already pointed out that the beneficiaries (along with everyone else) will now face higher prices which will take much of that increase away. However as politics, I believe it WILL work. The poor and those who are related to them will be quite happy at the 'generosity' of the Wynne government, and a lot of mushy minded people will also feel, without putting much thought into it, that this is right because people "deserve a living wage".

"take much of that increase away" ?  They are getting a 20% increase !  You expect >10% inflation ?  Wow.

If it doesn't crash the economy, and more people benefit then we will be seeing much, much more of this kind of thing.

Offline SirJohn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5801
Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #153 on: January 21, 2018, 02:36:03 pm »
"take much of that increase away" ?  They are getting a 20% increase !  You expect >10% inflation ?  Wow.

If it doesn't crash the economy, and more people benefit then we will be seeing much, much more of this kind of thing.

Some will disappear in the form of higher prices. Some will disappear in fewer hours, and fewer jobs (on a macro scale) and in employers doing a lot more third party,  temp hiring and outsourcing so they don't have to pay any benefits at all. This will help push up inflation. The Liberals' carbon tax will push it up more. Combined, it will make foreign manufactured goods cheaper by comparison, which will cost still more jobs.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Michael Hardner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12467
Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #154 on: January 21, 2018, 02:55:43 pm »
Some will disappear in the form of higher prices. Some will disappear in fewer hours, and fewer jobs (on a macro scale) and in employers doing a lot more third party,  temp hiring and outsourcing so they don't have to pay any benefits at all.

Ok, that makes more sense and I am inclined to believe it too.
 

Online wilber

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9120
Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #155 on: January 21, 2018, 05:39:48 pm »
Mind you, in the previous 8 years the minimum wage had gone up a grand total of $1.15 so maybe some catch up was due.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Michael Hardner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12467
Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #156 on: January 21, 2018, 06:14:53 pm »
Seems like they were keeping up with inflation at that rate.

Offline TimG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #157 on: January 21, 2018, 06:21:18 pm »
Mind you, in the previous 8 years the minimum wage had gone up a grand total of $1.15 so maybe some catch up was due.
BOC inflation since 2007: 17.35% so a 'catch up' raise would be $1.70 or another $0.55 over what they already got. No one would have complained if that was the increase (other than the normal grumbling from the usual quarters). The problem is the increase far outstrips inflation and the government naively thinks this will have no impact on jobs or wages for the people affected.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 06:22:55 pm by TimG »

Offline Michael Hardner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12467
Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #158 on: January 21, 2018, 06:23:19 pm »
  The problem is the increase far outstrips inflation and the government naively thinks this will have no impact on jobs or wages for the people affected.

Strange that you call this belief 'naive' but also decline to weigh in on being able to quantify the impacts.

Offline TimG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #159 on: January 21, 2018, 07:06:11 pm »
Strange that you call this belief 'naive' but also decline to weigh in on being able to quantify the impacts.
You can't measure "what would have been" but that does not mean basic economic theory is wrong. As I said before: basic economic theory is well understood and has been shown to be right in many circumstances. If minimum wage advocates want to argue that basic economic theory does not apply they need to provide compelling evidence. Simply being unable to measure any effect in a complex economy with multiple confounding factors is not compelling evidence. Minimum wage advocates are a lot like creationists rejecting evolution. As with evolution we have a sound theory which is not perfect but reliable enough. Like creationists, minimum wage advocates argue the theory does not apply because it can't be proven to be be correct in all situations. This is unreasonable.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 07:12:05 pm by TimG »

Offline Michael Hardner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12467
Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #160 on: January 21, 2018, 07:14:37 pm »
You can't measure "what would have been" but that does not mean basic economic theory is wrong. As I said before: basic economic theory is well understood and has been shown to be right in many circumstances. If minimum wage advocates want to argue that basic economic theory does not apply they need to provide compelling evidence.

Right, but there is some room for disagreement even between economists.

Are you saying that economists think the minimum wage is a bad idea, in consensus ?

Offline TimG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #161 on: January 21, 2018, 07:24:39 pm »
Right, but there is some room for disagreement even between economists. Are you saying that economists think the minimum wage is a bad idea, in consensus?
The weight of the evidence is on the side of minimum wages having adverse impacts.

https://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/publications/economic-letter/2015/december/effects-of-minimum-wage-on-employment/

Quote
How do we summarize this evidence? Many studies over the years find that higher minimum wages reduce employment of teens and low-skilled workers more generally. Recent exceptions that find no employment effects typically use a particular version of estimation methods with close geographic controls that may obscure job losses. Recent research using a wider variety of methods to address the problem of comparison states tends to confirm earlier findings of job loss. Coupled with critiques of the methods that generate little evidence of job loss, the overall body of recent evidence suggests that the most credible conclusion is a higher minimum wage results in some job loss for the least-skilled workers—with possibly larger adverse effects than earlier research suggested.
The media and a small number left wing advocate economists have given us a false picture of the state of the literature.

Offline Michael Hardner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12467
Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #162 on: January 21, 2018, 08:06:36 pm »
I have never thought about it, so I will have a look.

Offline Michael Hardner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12467
Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #163 on: January 21, 2018, 08:07:25 pm »
Don't forget, though, that even if you and I see advantages in removing minimum wages, installing trade deals, and flat taxes....it is still a political economy.

Online wilber

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9120
Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #164 on: January 22, 2018, 12:15:53 am »
Seems like they were keeping up with inflation at that rate.

Not really because for five of those years there was no increase.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC